Managing Stress and Embodying Resilience with Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

• Why sometimes “How can I not make this worse?” is the best question to ask.
• Understand that stress should not be viewed as a failure, but as valuable information from our bodies.
• How we can build and strengthen resilience, even in the face of seemingly insurmountable challenges.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe is a bestselling author, an award-winning scholar, and a mother of three teenagers. Professionally, she has focused on resiliency and wellness, exploring the intersections of stress, optimal challenge, navigating change, and self-identity. 

Her personal journey from high school dropout to a doctorate degree embodies resilience in action, and she has dedicated her career to translating her research on resiliency into actionable strategies, inspiring confidence and growth in individuals and organizations worldwide.

Her two books are Stress Wisely: How to Be Well in an Unwell World and Calm Within the Storm: a Pathway to Everyday Resiliency.

Dr. Robyne's website: drrobyne.ca

Find Dr. Robyne on Instagram: dr_robynehd

Find Dr. Robyne's books here

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*Music by Sam Murphy*
IG: @sammmmmmurphy

Transcript

Managing Stress and Embodying Resilience with Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

Jessica Hornstein: Welcome everybody to another episode of the No, Not Crazy podcast. I am really excited to present to you today, Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe. I think you're going to find that she has a really important message for all of us. So, welcome, Dr. Robyne. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Oh, I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you, Jessica. 

Jessica Hornstein: I'm going to read your bio so everybody knows a little bit about you and then we will, we'll get started.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe is a bestselling author, an award-winning scholar, and a mother of three teenagers. Professionally, she has focused on resiliency and wellness, exploring the intersections of stress, optimal challenge, navigating change, and self-identity. Her personal journey from high school dropout to a doctorate degree embodies resilience in action, and she has dedicated her career to translating her research on resiliency into actionable strategies, inspiring confidence and growth in individuals and organizations worldwide.

Her two books are Stress Wisely, How to Be Well in an Unwell World and Calm Within the Storm, a Pathway to Everyday Resiliency. 

I'm so excited to have you here. I mean, I just have to start with the fact that really having three teenagers is a lesson in resiliency itself, but I know you have so much more to share about resiliency and I'm, I'm really excited to get to all of it.

So, I know, as mentioned in the bio, your personal journey has had a lot of twists and turns and really informs the work you're doing now. So, I was wondering if you could start by sharing a little bit more about that and really digging into, you know, what that was like for you, what your experience was and, yeah, what, what it inspired. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Well, again, thank you so much for this opportunity to share this, this work and, and parts of my story. So, um, and again, I very candidly in the book, I talk about how, um, like I grew up in a really like healthy, supportive, functional house, like things that are, you know, things that people would aspire to have as their childhood experiences yet, even from a very, very young age it's just like something within myself just kind of felt a little bit off. And by the time I hit adolescence, I was in a very, very dark season. And, um, I really struggled academically. I struggled socially. Like I just really kind of struggled almost in like every life area. And by the time I got into kind of early high school days, I just, it just wasn't for me. And I recall actually even educators saying that, you know, you're, you know, you're not quite, you know, you're not smart enough to be able to do it. No wonder you're struggling so much. Like there isn't really a place for you here and that, that hits, right? Like that lands, despite some positive messaging from loved ones and other people, sometimes that negative messaging just kind of goes right through it. And so I did self-select out of high school. And at the same time, my, my mental health really started to erode. I was really kind of lost. And I often share this piece, Jessica, that the, the people who need the most help, we, we ask for it in all the wrong ways and how I was letting people know that I was hurting took the form of, again, really lots of struggles with my mental health.

But also with addictions, a lot of self-harm and, you know, things were really, really off course. And I recall very, you know, very well that there was this kind of turning point where my, my family really intervened and they really didn't know, they loved me hard, but helplessly, right. They really didn't know how do we get this, this child who was so off course, who was so lost, how do we get her back on track? And at that same time, my family actually made the decision to move. Uh, we were living in a very large city and my family moved to a smaller community and that really became this priority of getting me better, getting me well, and, you know, even started to get, you know, plans of re-enrolling in school, like I started to do the work.

So I really was kind of at this turning point where it was kind of like this comeback, this upswing. And unfortunately, I experienced this pretty significant life event. I was part of a catastrophic car accident, which absolutely everything, in my role got turned upside down. I was very fortunate. I survived the single car accident of my vehicle going into the ice. I broke through the ice.

It sunk in a river. I was trapped inside during a blizzard. I was able to get out of that. vehicle, but once I was able to get out of that trapped vehicle that sunk in this, uh, in this river, it was a gentleman who actually ended up risking his life to save mine. And this was this really significant turning point in me personally, where all of a sudden, you know, I felt like my life was really spared that night. And it just gave me this really kind of different outlook on having to figure out, okay, how do I actually build a comeback that's from within and figure out a way to be able to show up in a different way. So yeah, all of that kind of transpired when I was 16 and, you know, recoveries are never linear, so there were a lot of digressions and then we got kind of back on track and, and then I started to build my comeback and I used education as the ticket to do that.

Jessica Hornstein: Oh, well, there's so much there. first of all, that's, I mean, what a, what a story about your car accident. And, um, yeah, thank goodness you're here. Certainly, something to be grateful for. And that's so interesting what you say about the, you know, the context of your family and your parents and the positive influences and the support you had around you. Right. And yet, you know, you still had that, that space inside you that was struggling. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Sometimes that's actually even like, even I think a different challenge that we don't often talk about where it was like, I have all of the external markers that we need for a child to be healthy and successful.

Yet it just really reinforced that there must be something so wrong with me because I just remember like teachers, educators, people in the community being like, you have all of the things that you need to be successful, but there must be something wrong with you because like none of this is working and any other kid would be fine. And again, that's when it starts to kind of bring up that internalized battle of just. Like, you know, what, what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I be like everybody else? 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. So, you feel like you were getting some messages, some external messages from certain areas in your life that you did internalize. Do you feel like in the in the system, in the education system or, or whatever it was that that's where that came from?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, that was a big part of it. Absolutely. And again, it's so interesting when we reflect back and especially now, with the type of career I've been able to pursue in the area of research that I do, you know, being able to look back, there were so many even like kind of red flags that it's like, Oh, this, this is, this is concerning. At the time, you know, people really, I don't think know what to do in the educational system with somebody with, you know, especially a woman with ADHD and, uh, with learning disabilities, with mental health pieces, like it wasn't something that folks were talking about 30 years ago.

So, you know, again, they were kind of doing the best they could. Again, on the outside, everything should be fine. But when you carry these invisible challenges and these invisible components or parts of who you are, I think that really complicates it, and also to, the other part too, again, in reflection, I've been able to see how, you know, this narrative that got put together, picked up, got adopted by even some people within my family that I was kind of a little bit different. I was a little bit difficult. You know, it was one of those things where if you could just, gosh, Robyne, if you could just take the emotion out of all of this, you would do so much better. If you could just, you know, focus, if you weren't so sensitive, like again, it was this notion that some people made me feel that you're, you're too much, you know, always felt like you're too much.

And one of the beautiful things I was able to discover and to build as I aged, and especially into my adulthood was you're never too much for the right people. And realizing that there were parts of me that were really kind of being cast in a really negative light by, by, you know, even, you know, sibling, right, like even people in my world. So, I think it was this kind of parallel process where there were a few little rocky parts at home, but also the school component, I think really contributed to it as well. 

Jessica Hornstein: As a former teacher, I know that there are a lot of challenges in the educational system. Um, and that's not to blame teachers, you know, that's just the system. I know you're in Canada, so it may be a little bit of a different system than what I've experienced, but you know, it's, it's built to fit a certain kind of person and a certain kind of learner. And if you don't fit into that, um, most schools are not equipped to sort of manage everybody's, everybody's needs.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Absolutely. And one of the things I often share with people say to me, like, wow, like, you know, you know, school really did you dirty? Like, wow. And it's like, no, no, there were certain people within a very big complex system that yeah, definitely contributed to it. And school and my education is how I built a comeback out of that season of my life. And it gave me a place to be able to learn, to grow. As soon as we started to navigate and figure out more about how I learned as a learner, I was able to get the right supports. And again, very much that same system that did contribute also was this gateway for me to be able to build a big, bright future.

So again, we talked about this idea that both can be true, right? The system can be flawed and there's people within that system that really do have such a huge positive impact. And so many of my dear friends and colleagues are educators. And the, the intention, I believe with the majority of educators is so good. They go into this profession, this vocation for a reason. And unfortunately, the burnout rates are so high. I think that really contributes a lot of times to be able to not show up for some of the students who might need that extra support in a way for them to figure out who they are as learners. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. And just a factor of time too. Yes. You know, there's not enough time in the day. And I think, you know, what you're saying is, and I think that's, that's really important because it speaks to our need to be able to empower ourselves. Yes. Right. And to be connected to who we really are and what we need and what that means for, you know, the people were around, or the environments were in, and, and that, you know, and sometimes also that when we have to be in environments maybe that aren't ideal for us or with people who maybe send us messages that aren't healthy for us, we know how to sort of where to put them, right? Um, yeah, so I'm curious what it was—I mean, you spoke about your car accident and how that was sort of a pivotal point for you. You know, was it that sort of helped you make that shift of like, no, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm not crazy. I'm not damaged. I am this package of all these things and it's all okay. Now here's what I do with it. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, I think again, there's so many different kinds of points that we can like threads we can pull on what that recovery look like. But I think one of the kind of the biggest truth in all of this work for me and my lived experience was the steadfast faith and hope my mother had within me.

So, despite all of these difficult seasons, these storms, this like rough, like this rough air all around me, my mother just had this like. Steadfast confidence that if anyone is gonna figure it out, it's gonna be you. And she would tell me all the time that I could do hard things. And I'd say, Mom, this is really hard. And she's like, I know it's hard. And Robyne, you are well equipped to do hard things. You gotta trust yourself. And that even just that notion of her saying, Robyne, you can do hard things. Pivotal and saving my life the night of my car accident, because as I was in this moment, drowning, trapped in a vehicle, I remember thinking about my mom and I remember actually feeling not scared that I was in this situation. I remember feeling angry and I was feeling angry that I wouldn't be able to protect her from this. And when I started to think about my mom, it was like this deep old emotional echo where she would have been that person to say, you can do hard things. And I remember using that as this borrowed courage to be able to just see how far I could try and get to my own recovery, to my own rescue.

In that moment, I got as far as I could. And then sure enough, that person I needed right at the exact time he presented himself and, uh, Joseph Todd was able to pull me out of the ice. Uh, he was awarded the highest medal of bravery in Canada for risking his life to save a civilian. Like it was so significant.

And what it really helped me see is that there's this component where like, we have to do it to a point. And when we have people who help us frame these. These perspectives of trusting. I could do hard things. I went to my absolute limit of what I was able to do. And in that exact moment, the person that I needed showed up in my darkest hour and helped cross that finish line for me. Right. So, so I think just that confidence and she never lost hope. In me and my future. And so, when I think about how do we start to transition from these dark seasons into what's possible to me, that ingredient is it's hope. It's trusting that somehow this is all going to work out and maintaining these hope filled practices to make sure that we're okay when we get there.

Jessica Hornstein: Hmm. What would some of those practices be? 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, I love that question. And this is one of the, I, one of the reasons why I love working with, with, like I get to work with organizations all over the world, but I also make sure to always make time to work with children and teenagers, because I want them to have representation of like somebody with ADHD, with learning disabilities, somebody who's overcome addictions, who's like navigated, like so many different types of obstacles that doesn't preclude you from having a big, bright future, because to me, representation is so important. So, sharing hope-filled stories, letting people know, and it's not in the vein of like, Oh, I did it so you can do it. It's like, people have done this before and now you are in charge of figuring out what's your story going to look like. So, I think one of the first heartfelt practices is like talking about our, like our hard-earned wisdom, right? These were not easy lessons that so many of us carry and it's this openness and that vulnerability of sharing our mistakes. And the reality is success is made up from so many failures and setbacks yet. So often we just look at success. We don't talk about all of those, those moments in between that braided all together. So hope practice number one is definitely sharing hope-filled stories. The other one that I think is really important is, is again, really doing that work around that notion of like understanding that there's parts of us that carry dark seasons.

There's parts of us that struggle. But there's also this big, beautiful other part of us who will be able to find a way through. And it's almost this notion of kind of making peace with all the different parts of you that make up this mosaic. And, and instead of trying to change everything that's wrong with us or what we perceive as wrong with us, it's making space for the parts that might not serve us so well, but it's a part of who we are, and we learn how to work with it. So, the first one, again, hope-filled stories in the second is doing the work to start to bring those parts together. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. I love that. It's true because it, it never works right to try to cleave off parts of who we are, right? And I feel like that's where the struggle is. Yeah. Yeah. Because then, you know, we just exhaust ourselves in that process and we bring on more shame and it will just give us more reasons to think that there's something wrong with us because you're, you're just trying to swim upstream. So, yeah, that's such an important message. And this part I know in, in your book, even in the description of your book, Stress Wisely—which is such a, a great title—it says that it's an invitation to lean into parts of that intuitively know there's, there's like a better way. Right. So that's sort of what you're speaking to there—is really getting in touch with all the parts and, and really discovering that part that has that strength and that wisdom that knows what you need and how you can navigate life, and everything that will inevitably, you know, there will be hard things that come to you.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Absolutely. So, my first book is focused on human resiliency. Like how do people bounce back? How do people manage these big altering life events, whether it be a loss of job, a loss of a relationship, a health diagnosis, like I really wanted to kind of share what I had seen, um, what those pillars are that help people with their resiliency. And again, having worked with people for almost two decades in this field, I started to notice that there was persons who their capacity for resiliency, that threshold was actually expanded when they had a really solid well-being practice.

And what was so unique about this work is it wasn't just a health practice, right? So, it wasn't just that these people were healthier. These people had a better grip of well-being and what we later discovered when we started taking that deeper dive, we realized that there were actually like eight areas of our overall well-being, that if you just put a little bit of work into each one of those, we actually saw remarkable capacity to increase our ability to be resilient when we started focusing on our well-being.

So, for example, we talk about physical health. Yeah, absolutely, that's part of it, but so is emotional health, our intellectual health, our environments, social, financial, occupational, and spiritual. So, when people were able to like nurture these different areas of their lives in a really like gentle and tender way, cause we can't hate ourselves healthy yet I think there's this pressure in our society that we have to like hustle and earn our worth. And like, we have to, again, like we hate ourselves into this physical transformation and we all know it doesn't work, it doesn't work in a sustained way. We might get that, you know, before and after picture for a minute, but then, you know, but we're not going to be able to sustain it. We don't have that quality of our day. 

So, so that's what really inspired Stress Wisely, but looking at these different areas and also to the kind of overarching message was we, we don't get rid of stress. It's our first line of defense. It's our survival system. We don't want to get rid of it. We want to work with it in a gentler way that, and again, intuitively, as soon as we start to do these practices, people intuitively just start to feel this deep level of well-being.

That's really been the missing ingredient for many, many of their years. So often. 

Jessica Hornstein: Hmm. So, the stress is sort of like a, just a little indicator. Like you're like, yeah, something's going on here, okay. It's like a little light bulb to sort of get you aware of like okay, what do I need to do here? And what, what resources you can draw on, rather than just sort of trying to punish yourself and push through. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Absolutely. And you're right, as an indicator, right. Stress is data. Like it's our bodies giving us information that something's off, like giving us information that we need to rest. We need to recalibrate. We have to recover or, you know, Hey, no, this is important. You need to level up. You have to skill up. Like you gotta get focused and you need to kind of get on the right path. So again, it's our first line of defense, but it's also the system that gives us the most information about how our inner world’s matching with our outer world. And again, on the outside, you can have everything dialed in and it looks like this amazing highlight reel, but on the inside, you might be very unwell. Yet again, what we're talking about is getting this integrated aligned system where the inside matches the outside. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. And it's, yeah, it's so important because usually when we get stressed, we take that as an indicator of we're failing somehow. Yeah. Why am I tired? Why am I unhappy with this? And it just becomes another thing, rather than, okay, this is a way to take care of myself. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Absolutely. And the body's natural state is to heal, which I think so often gets lost in all of the hype cycles about what we should be doing and ought to be doing about our well-being. And the reality is that we have this kind of notion that there's like something external that's going to fix it. Right. And it could be in the form of like, you know, this day. Diet or this, you know, this type of practice, it could be in the form of a person, right? Somebody's going to come along and rescue me from all of this.

But the reality is it's inner work. It's inner work in terms of using that information to be like, wow. Right. Everything feels urgent for me. For example, let's say everything feels, you know, I feel really restless. Everything feels urgent. I'm feeling like I'm really short with my kids. Like I'm just feeling off. And instead of saying like, Oh, what's wrong with me? It's like, wow, what needs aren't being met right now for me? Like, how do I need to re-resource myself? Because my body is sending me all the cues that it can't heal. It can't get itself back into balance because there's so many pressures that are pulling it off kilter.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. You spoke about those eight areas of well-being and that they can really be foundational, right, to expand our capacity for resilience or to navigate hard things. Obviously, in an ideal world, we'd have been developing that our whole lives and have all that in place, you know, so when the stress comes, we have that sort of core strength to manage it. But let's say someone has not been aware of that and something's going on, like what can they do in the moment, like when something hits you and maybe you don't have all these practices in place. What would you say is really the at least the first step they can take?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I love that. Yeah, I absolutely love that question. Um, so one of the, my invitations when people are all of a sudden, like, you know, our, again, our body's always sending us this information and all of a sudden we realize it's too much. And sometimes, unfortunately, there is a crisis, right? There is some like big moment where, or maybe you like really, you know, give, you know, go after your kids, right?

Like you just like yell and you're just like, this isn't me. Like, this just does not feel right. Like aligned with who I am as a person. So usually, we have that self-awareness check where all of a sudden we're like, okay, this is not okay. And my first invitation in that moment is to like, you have to simplify, like absolutely simplify, even to the moment of taking just a little bit of solitude, just to like, check in with yourself to be able to be like, and again, that could be like, if you have little kids, it could literally be like closing the bathroom door if it's possible, if those children are safe on the other side of it. Maybe you put on that program so, you know, for 30 minutes or 25 minutes or whatever, these children are safe. And then literally just be like, okay, like what, what is really going on right now? Cause so many folks I've seen are on just this autopilot.

They are addicted to the stress cycle. They run on adrenaline and cortisol. They don't even have that opportunity to kind of stop, pause, evaluate. Pause. Just take that moment to check in with yourself. And then I, and so again, then let's say, for example, you pause you, you'd have that moment, but then you realize like, I don't even like, I don't even know what to do. My first invitation is even just ask yourself very simply, what would a healthy person do in this moment? Like what would a healthy person do? So, it doesn't even have to be you. It's just, and again, this is why role models and representation is so important. Because if everyone around you would be like, Oh, in that moment, they grab the wine, they go to the casino, right? They just jump on online shopping and buy stuff that they don't need. Right? Like if that's what you're exposed to, you know, And it makes it harder to have examples of like, what should I be doing? I remember in early days when I was a single mama with those three babies, and I would ask that question, like, what would a, like an aspirational, healthy, well, mom do in [00:24:00] this moment, it was scoop up those kids and we're just going to go for a walk, right? Just do my best to just get outside, change in scenery. We know nature is strong. It's so important for us as people, also for little ones. So again, it's just using that framework of pause, kind of not making any major decisions, and just asking yourself, like, what could a healthy person do in this moment?

And then we start to build habits that make it so that way we start to evolve or become that person that we're working towards. That's possible for us to work towards. 

Jessica Hornstein: How would we know? Because you mentioned, I just want to go back for a second. You mentioned how, you know, so many of us are addicted to this, the stress cycle. I'm guessing most of us don't know that though, because it feels normal, right? That feels normal because we're so used to it, as you said. What are some signs that somebody might recognize to say, Oh, maybe that's me. Maybe I am addicted to that. And I need to sort of pull out of it from a different perspective.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a few kinds of common ones and I'll speak specifically, cause I do a lot of work with, again, all different groups, but women specifically, I feel like is the, the group that, um, there's so much invisible labor that goes into womanhood that. So often it's just perceived as like, well, this is just part of being a woman or being a mother or being a caregiver. So, you know, these are it's just kind of like what you signed up for, but there are some very specific behaviors that we see. Um, the kind of the first one we actually look at again, and we'll kind of, we can go through the different spectrum, but like the first one, it has to do a lot with, with our physical health.

So low energy, um, another one also is like food behavior. So, we know, for example, when we're addicted to stress cycling, we really don't have much of an appetite during the day because our appetite's been associated actually with cortisol, which means during the day when our cortisol levels at the beginning of the day, maybe aren't very high.

We don't really have much of an appetite, but as the day goes on, our cortisol levels will start to rise, which means like at [00:26:00] the end of the day, we feel ravenous. Like we actually can't control. Kind of our eating behavior at nighttime. And we tend to overfeed at nighttime because our bodies are so full of cortisol.

And what happens is the cortisol actually gets metabolized by carbohydrates, which is why at the end of the day, nobody's like, Oh, I need to curl up with some tuna. Right. We curl up with those sugary, delicious, yummy things, because that's going to help break down that though, that cortisol. So, then we can get those melatonin levels to rise so we can fall asleep. But then unfortunately what we see is women tend to wake up between 1 a. m. and 3 a. m., and they wake up worrying. And again, as soon as you wake up, it's like panic because we're having a cortisol spike. So, looking at some of these behaviors in terms of like how we're trying to self-medicate, like how are we trying to look after our needs? Because again, our body also always wants to find a way to look after itself. And for many of us, it comes to our food intake because the body's trying to get our, kind of, get our body back into balance. So again, that's one area. 

Another one we see as well is the idea of, like everything again, I mentioned, like feels urgent. Like there's this kind of like chasing feeling that's happening that we're Always behind, or we're like, we're forgetting something or we're not doing enough. And I often share with, with mothers, especially like, if you're wondering like, you know, am I doing enough for my kids? Am I a good enough mother? Well, you already are because the people who aren't, aren't asking that question, right? They're never asking like, Oh, my gosh, am I showing up enough for my kids? So, taking that pressure off, but that connects to the mindset of scarcity, which is another sign that we're in a cycle of stress, which is like there's not enough time. There's not enough energy. There's not enough resources. I didn't get enough sleep last night. Like I don't have enough people in my world who understand me. I don't feel appreciated. So that like scarcity is another. So those are two symptoms right off the bat that I see so often women in my age bracket, which like I'm 45 and, and that's the one that I just, Oh, I connect with so many women on just because it just seems like, well, isn't that just part of what it's supposed to be at 45? And it's like, no, it doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to feel like that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. We do live in a society that. encourages that. I think that's that mindset, you know. I mean, really being exhausted is almost taken as, Oh, that means, you know, you're a hard worker and like all these things, um, badge of honor, right? I like it's a badge of honor. Yes. That, you know, we're told, yeah, that that's just the way it is, you know? And that's that's how you should feel. That's normal. So it's very, I think it's very hard to, to pull out of that and see like, no, we should actually be able to enjoy our lives able to breathe and things like that. um, not be, you know, in this constant, like buzzing, like all the time, but it is very hard because that is what society tells us, you know, that it values. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I absolutely, you're absolutely right. You're like so absolutely accurate. And what I think is just so beautiful is when we finally take a step out of that, what's perceived as normative. It's so amazing how fast our body will start to re-regulate, right? Like all of a sudden you realize, wow, I am no longer in this. rat race. All of a sudden, I realized my priorities are so much more clear. And like, it's just like almost like this liberation from the fact that, you know what, I'm not doing this anymore. I don't have to do this. 

And, you know, I even recall, like, for example, so as I shared, I have three teenagers. I literally fall in love with my kids over and over each day. Like, I feel so fortunate to have these amazing teenagers. kids and they're, they're not perfect, but they are such cool people.

Like they are such special humans. And it was amazing because our daughter who just finished high school and there were all of these events surrounded by, um, like senior year, right? Like there was the prom, there was the grad, like there were all of this stuff. And, and it was so amazing because at one point, Like Ava just tapped out and she's like, yeah, I'm good.

And I said, Oh, and I said, well, I think there's like another, like you're supposed to go to this thing. And she's like, my social battery is completely out. She's like, I'm good. I'm going to have a nap. And she's like, and my boyfriend and I, we're just going to grab a movie. Like I love that she like self-selected out of it. And she wasn't worried about reprisals. She wasn't worried about anything else. It was just like, no, I have already given as much as I can to all of these festivities. I just need some downtime tapping out and she self-selected out of it. And I just thought that was so beautiful that at 18 when it's like, but no, this is prom. You're supposed to do all of these things that she was able to like tap out. And that gave me a lot of encouragement that it's going to look very different for her as she's going into young adulthood than it did for, for me, for example. 

Jessica Hornstein: Exactly. Yeah. Connect to that, that kind of truth within yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. And this is the part that, this is why to me, it's so important that we're having these conversations about finding a way to like, kind of slow down, reprioritize, because I just feel, unfortunately, so many families are missing these moments and they're just like hustling.

And I understand that there's so much privilege to be able to take a step back and just kind of slow down a wee bit, but it's like, I don't feel like we can afford not to. And again, even this weekend, I just got back. I flew in last night, got back from Atlanta. Uh, we live just outside of Toronto. Jackson had basketball in Atlanta all weekend, every weekend. He's in a different state. It feels like playing basketball. It's so beautiful watching the children be able to have these opportunities and to be present for them.

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. And I mean, thank you for making that point about privilege because you're right, to a certain extent it is a privilege, you know, to be able to sort of slow down. And some people. Literally, they're just trying to keep their heads above water all the time. And, um, I think there are always like little things you can do, right? Like, yes, maybe you can't change your work situation or, or things like that, but, even if just on the way home, you know, you're walking home and like, just look at the sky for a minute. Exactly. Not while you're [crossing the street, but, you know, in the safe moment, um, you can just sort of incorporate little things like that, that don't take time, really don't take money, don't require a complete reorganization of your life, but it, it will nourish you.

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: And again, I think what's so important is like, once we, once we start to just get even like, just that little bit of a, of a flavor, just that little bit of taste of how, how different it feels to like exhale and realize like, you know, this isn't, this isn't a competition. There aren't medals for the mom who burned herself out, right? Like there's no finish line where, all of a sudden, Oh, now it's easy. Um, like every part of life is challenging. And it's one of the things that we often talk about in my work. And, and I talk about this personally as well, is just the importance of collecting precious little moments, right? The little moments aren't that little after all. And again, if we slow down just enough to look for that good thing. And again, even just having a practice at the end of the day of asking your loved ones or your community, what was the highlight, right?

What's something that you saw today that was like really awe-inspiring or what was a good story? story today that you came upon that really touched your heart. And, and again, when we start to, even with the young children talk about like, Hey, like what's your update? And I want the long version and tell me some of those little pieces of magic that you're able to see.

What happens is the very next day, that little one's going to go out there and start looking for them. And we can look at the negative and the noise. And all the bad stuff, because we're inundated with it. But as soon as we start to change that perspective of looking for those hope filled stories, looking for the good parts, it changes the conversation of what your family or what you and your friends or your loved ones, what you're talking about.

And again, there, I just, again, the old kind of adage. It's like, you know, people will talk about people if they aren't kind of given a chance to talk about something that's more, more imaginative? Something that's, you know, bigger than just a person? So that's something that I think is a simple practice, as you said, doesn't cost anything, but just looking in one little caveat to just frame on that, though, is when we're going through hard times, one of the, you know how we all kind of have these like little kind of like irritants. One of my little irritants is when people say everything happens for a reason. I do not believe that at all, because some things just suck. Some things are just. Awful. And so, when we're talking about finding those little moments, I'm not suggesting it's silver lining in the hard parts because some things there's no silver lining in it. It's just wrong. And it's awful. What I'm talking about is in the midst of that broken parts or that hard part, as you said, seeing a sunrise, right? Something that just shows us truth. That shows us that, you know what, despite all of this, you know, tomorrow morning will come and, or wherever, you know, your faith practice might take you of, you know what, I'm just surrendering this part because I have no control over it.

So again, it's not a silver lining in anything. And everything it's being able to even in the bad, worst darkest moments to still trust. And again, that's that thread of hope that at the end of the day, this will work out, but it didn't have to work out like this. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. And thank you for making that point because you're, you're absolutely right. It's not about, I mean, the silver lining thing is that it's so dismissive of the experience. And as you said, yeah, some things just suck. And, you know, there's doesn't have to be a rhyme or reason. It just sucks. Those little moments aren't to erase the suckiness, for lack of a more eloquent way to say it. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: I like that way.

Jessica Hornstein: It's to, it's just to give yourself something in that moment, right? Rather than to take away your feelings or your experiences. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. And, I appreciate you flagging that and highlighting it because again, especially when we navigate things like grief, grief in itself is just so complex. And I feel like so often people try to like rush their healing and their name of resiliency. It's like, Oh, I want to be perceived as a resilient person. So, I'm going to rush the healing, and we can heal faster than time can go. So, it's actually like honoring the lived experience that, you know, grief rewrites us.

We will never be the same after we experience a significant loss. The question then becomes, how do we learn to carry it with us? Because it's something that we are going to carry each and every day for the rest of our lives. So again, telling people, Oh, there must be a silver lining in it somewhere. It's like, no, I am actually being rewritten by this loss and I will find hope, but it's not by suggesting that somehow this all had to work out this particular way. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Well, and grief means something or any experience, right? It means it's different things for different people. So also, you know, people are complex as well. Right. So, we can't decide for somebody else what is hard or easy, what's something that shouldn't be a big deal or should be a big deal. So, I think it's really important always when we're, when we're communicating with somebody in any way around any of these things to really note that They are entitled to feel how they feel about whatever they're experiencing. Yeah, absolutely. Of course, we want to support people. Yeah, if they feel something isn't serving them the way they're handling something, but It's not to take away the way they feel. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. And I, and I can share with you on it, on an example. Um, so, and again, every experience is different for everybody. And I think right now, so often we're just like jumping in, in so many situations, like trying to be like the rescuer and the problem solver and the fixer. And what was interesting, like even, I share this example often when I'm talking with folks is, you know, I remember a wee while ago, I was in the kitchen with my three teenagers, um, like we're waiting for Ava to come home from school. So, the boys and I, we're in the kitchen having a week to little kind of team huddle. And then all of a sudden, when their sister came home, like she was in a mood, like as soon as she walked in the house like she was in a mood. And I turned to the boys to suggest Jessica, like, you might want to give your sister some space, but they were already gone, right?

They had already fled the scene. The boys had already took off. And I turned to Ava and in that moment, like I just saw she was carrying so much. And I just said, Ava, whatever you're going through right now, do you need comfort or like, do you need a solution? Do you need comfort or a solution? And she turned to me and she's like, no mama.

She's like, really in this moment, I just really need you to hate math as much as I do. And I'm like, sister, I got you. Right. So we, everything that was wrong with math. And then when I noticed she's like, started to re-regulate, I asked her, I'm like, okay, like what, what happened today? And you know, she shared this very endearing story about she was in English class, like literature class.

And the teacher said, you know, Ava, what's the last book that you read that made you cry? Like that you really felt. And she said calculus and like, everyone's going to laugh at her because they thought she was being a smarty, but like, she was just so overwhelmed and embarrassed because like, [00:39:00] this is what, like, she was really struggling in this one class.

And, and, you know, afterwards when we were kind of unpacking it, she, you know, the last thing she said, she's like, mom, I didn't need you to tell me that, . I needed to work harder in math, or I needed a tutor or, you know, She's like, I literally just appreciated so much that you would just like, say like, yeah, , this sucks.

And that was that I could see why that was super embarrassing. Um, and not just say like, but don't worry. Right. So often when parents say like, don't worry, it's like, I don't know how to not worry. If I did, I wouldn't be doing it. Right. So, it's just letting them feel what they need to, like, letting them feel what they need to feel.

So sometimes, you know, just being able to show up and say, Hey, do you want comfort or solutions? Or another one I found just this past weekend. Um, Jax had a couple of difficult games at that basketball tournament, um, in Atlanta. And afterwards, um, he was with the team. So I just had these little windows, Jessica, where I got to see him.

Cause we were staying in different hotels and travel arrangements and whatnot. And Jax, I'm like, is there anything I can do to make this not worse? Like, is there anything I can do for this moment to make this experience, like not worse for you right now? And, and then he’s like, this is, you know what? This would not make it worse. He's like, could you be, could you get to the venue before I get to the venue? So when I walk into that gym, like you're already there. Like that, that would, that would make this not worse as like done. Right. So again, I just showed up half an hour earlier to make sure I was in the venue.

I was sitting there. So then that way, when he walked in, he knew he had an ally in that space, right? Is his biggest fan was already there. So again, just using language to be able to hold space, I think is really helpful regardless of what people are navigating. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. I love that question. Not going to make it worse. You're right. That's, that's great. That's really great. Great stories. Those really do illuminate, I think, such important ways that we can empower people and. And really meet them where they are, and help them, help them meet themselves where they are too. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. And, you know, a question that I often get asked when I, you know, share some of these examples or people are like, well, like, you know, well, it's easy for you because you know how to do this. Like, this is your field. You studied, you taught child development. Of course, you're going to know what to say, but the, but again, this is where I just gently push back.

And it's like, um, I actually don't necessarily think it's all just because of the work that I do, because I think like success leaves clues. And what I mean by that, it's something that I've learned is that when I'm in a place where I feel well and I'm grounded and I'm present, like it just becomes more obvious.

How we can show up for other people. And, somebody asked me recently, they're like, Oh, well, you know, what do you do in the morning to kind of get yourself in that? And I shared a very, very simple morning routine that I do every single day. It doesn't matter where I am on the planet. And the person said to me, she said, wow, you like, do you ever feel guilty for like, kind of putting yourself ahead of everybody else in your family?

And I said, no, I feel guilty when I yell at my kids. I feel guilty when I don't do the things that I know make me a better parent and a better person. And I know this, I have this knowledge. I feel guilty if I have this knowledge and I don't action it. I don't feel guilty for taking action on things that I know are, is going to make me more available to be present for my family and my colleagues and the people that I'm so fortunate to be able to serve.

Jessica Hornstein: That's a great point. Yes, absolutely. Well, as we finish up here, I'm wondering, is there anything else you feel that we haven't covered?

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah, I think, especially in the spirit of the work that you do, cause I'm a fan of your podcast. I'm an avid listener myself. And I just really love that piece about like the, you know, that kind of idea around, when did you start to realize like, you know, maybe it isn't me maybe there, there is more to this conversation and the piece that I would love to share if we just have a minute was just a circle back to that piece about being an adult, being a grown woman with ADHD is I feel like there's so much misinformation out there about what adult ADHD looks like in women.

I get a wee bit nervous. Cause it seems like, you know, every tick tock, everything is like, Oh, here's a quiz. There you go. Um, and it feels like just the people are almost like thinking it's like the catchall. Right now for, for anything. Oh, you know, she has ADHD. [00:43:00] Um, but as somebody who has lived with it for like my whole life, one of the pieces that I would just love to share with persons is ADHD manifests so differently for boys and girls and for men and for women.

And so often ADHD is thought as these external markers, right? That restlessness, that hyperactivity, the distractibility, what we see in our research specifically for women, um, All of that action, right? All of that hyperactivity more often than not, it's invisible. And it's showing up in the way that we think in the way that we feel in our, for example, time blindness, right?

It's like, Oh, I have five minutes, of course, I can paint the kitchen, right? It's like, you know, like just having zero understanding of time, or maybe like, just like really deep sensitivity to criticism. Uh, like it just feels like it's like a deep wound. Yeah. If somebody doesn't like us or somebody doesn't appreciate or kind of do what we're doing, or perhaps, for example, the, the distractability shows up in like a messy kitchen and somebody is trying to tell you something, but you can't stop staring at all these bowls and plates and things around.

And until that's out of sight, you're not able to actually focus. So, I just really would love just to kind of hold space to recognize those symptoms. It's like, no, you're not crazy at all. It just looks so different for women and the supports that are available for women right now. It's exciting because it's a time where people are having these conversations more than they were before.

Um, but again, it's not that there's anything wrong with you. We just see the world in a different way that has such amazing potential to find a sense of ease that maybe has been missing in the lives of so many women who. Things like, Oh, it's just me. Um, there's, there's, it's, it's, it is you, but in all of the right ways. And when we learn how to work with it, it could be pretty significant as a game changer and how we feel about our life and our days. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you for, for bringing that up. And, it is really fascinating because that is a topic, right, where the understanding of it has really grown a lot and is really continuing to grow. And I think that's so positive. And I think also what you're saying about it, you know, can also be generalized, to all sorts of things that people, the way we're all wired differently, and what, what hasn't even been discovered yet. And the things that maybe don't have, you know, sort of a concrete diagnosis at this point in time, but it's still is, is really about the ways we process things, differently.

So yeah, so you're not crazy because you're experiencing something a certain way and it’s different than somebody else or different than what we're told is the norm. I don't think there really is a norm anymore anyway, you know, if you start to look at it and as more and more of these kinds of things like ADHD or something like that gets identified and they're learning more about, how people's brains are wired and all of that.

I think when more and more we're starting to like, there, there kind of is no norm, like in a way. I think that's where we're headed. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Oh, I, I echo that. I totally echo that. Absolutely. And I think there's definitely like a traditional way, how we've always done things. And I think it's like, if you vary from the traditional way of, this is how we do things, or this is how it's supposed to be, you know, all of a sudden you feel like an outlier, but I do believe that area, that space. space of outliers is rapidly growing. Um, and I think that's encouraging because it's making more space for us to be able to work with all of those different parts of who we are and what we're all about.

And, and just that kind of, that notion of like, just wanting to really just encourage people to, to trust their intuition, to trust themselves that find those hope-filled stories that recognize that there are ways to get more ease and that sense of groundedness and stability, steadiness, and peace in our days. Again, once we start to work with our biology versus working against it. 

Jessica Hornstein: That's a beautiful sentiment to end. Before we go, one last question is. I'm sure people will want to learn more about you and your work after this very enriching conversation. Where can they find you? 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Yeah. So. the best way Dr. Robyne at my website or on social Dr. Robyne, uh, you are so welcome to reach out and I would welcome these conversations to continue. So please feel free to do so. 

Jessica Hornstein: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. I love what you're doing, and I would love to hear more sometime. 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe: Absolutely. Let's do it. Part two. I would love that. Thank you so much. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thanks for being here.