Domestic Abuse: Understanding Its Wide Scope and Profound Effects with Sybil Cummin

• Recognize that domestic violence includes physical, emotional, financial, sexual, verbal, and even spiritual forms of abuse.  
• Why staying together for the children generally does not protect them physically or emotionally. 
• Explore how men and women typically experience abuse in different ways. 
• Learn how abusers systematically use gaslighting and other means of control from the beginning of relationships. 
• How to best support someone you think or know is in a domestic abuse situation.

Sybil Cummin is a licensed professional counselor and approved clinical supervisor specializing in working with survivors of domestic violence and narcissistic abuse, including the youngest witnesses. She specializes even further by focusing her work with survivors who are experiencing abuse post-separation, and abuse in our family court system. She created The Rising Beyond Community and The Rising Beyond Podcast to offer hope and strategies for healing from abusive relationships and offers training for other mental health professionals on working with this population.
 
Sybil’s website: www.risingbeyondpc.com

Find Sybil on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/risingbeyondpc/

Find Sybil on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/risingbeyondpowerandcontrol

***If you need Domestic Abuse support, here is the website Sybil referenced during the conversation:
https://www.domesticshelters.org/***

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Website: https://www.jessicahornstein.com

*Music by Sam Murphy*
IG: @sammmmmmurphy

Transcript

Jessica Hornstein: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes, feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually, there is something fundamentally right. So, join me and together we can all feel a little less crazy.

Welcome, everybody. Today on the No, Not Crazy podcast, we have a big and important topic to discuss. So, we are here today with Sybil Cummin. Sybil is a licensed professional counselor and approved clinical supervisor specializing in working with survivors of domestic violence and narcissistic abuse, including the youngest witnesses. She specializes even further by focusing her work with survivors who are experiencing abuse, post-separation and abuse in our family court system.

She created The Rising Beyond Community and The Rising Beyond Podcast to offer hope and strategies for healing from abusive relationships and offers training for other mental health professionals on working with this population. Welcome, Sybil. Thanks for being here. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Thank you for having me and kind of allowing me to share my knowledge and passion with a wider audience.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. It's such a, it's not an easy topic to grapple with, but it's really necessary I think that we, we talk about it. 

Sybil Cummin: I was gonna say, it's a, a topic that really out of any kind of crimes or any of these types of things is, is still really secretive and, you know, taboo to really discuss, but the numbers and the rates of it are so astronomical that it's happening so much more than people want to believe. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, I'm sure. So yeah, before we get into the heart of it, maybe you could, you know, give us a, a definition of, of domestic abuse or domestic violence, because I think it might be helpful for us to understand as we enter into this conversation, really what we're talking about, what those, you know, what the parameters are.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah, absolutely. It is important because people have a true misconception of what domestic abuse and domestic violence looks like. Very often it is solely thought of as kind of physical abuse within an intimate relationship. And that is just a tiny piece of what domestic abuse, um, some people call it intimate partner violence, some people use the term narcissistic abuse—most of it is kind of interchangeable, but really what we're talking about and so as we're talking today, it is a systematic and willful pattern of power and control from one intimate partner to another. And so, it is really that process of one intimate partner doing all the things that they can do to have power and control over their other partner within the relationship.

So that could be physical abuse and threatening physical action. It could be sexual abuse. It also could be elements of coercion, coercive control and so those things include, you know, the verbal and emotional abuse. Financial and economic abuse is actually the most common with across, you know, all domestic violence cases.

It can, you know, incorporate using children. It can incorporate all the things we talk about of, um, that gaslighting and making you doubt your reality, these psychological abuses. And so it incorporates so many things, not just the physical aspect of abuse. And the one that actually, that I didn't mention, that is always, like the last one mentioned is spiritual abuse as well.

So, using, spirituality, scripture to abuse in certain ways is, is also a piece of what we're talking about domestic abuse. 

Jessica Hornstein: Wow. Yeah, I think, I'm so glad you said that because I don't think people necessarily think of all those things. And it is really important to understand because people might be in a situation right, where they don't recognize what's going on as abusive, right? 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. And that term, it's interesting, it's like a newer term or like the cool kid's term, um, of narcissistic abuse. That term really is for people who don't subscribe to the term domestic violence because of those misconceptions. And so when they look at narcissistic abuse, they're looking at those other elements of coercive control that they're experiencing because they may not be experiencing physical abuse at all.

There may be zero physical threats. And so that term has really kind of felt true for more people. It is a form of domestic violence, and if that term fits what you believe about yourself and about your situation better, then I'm gonna meet you where you're at and use that term also. 

Jessica Hornstein: 

Yeah.Yeah. I think so many, so many of us have experienced in relationships having a partner invalidate our experience or our reality and, you know, try to talk us out of how we feel about what we're experiencing. And, you know, other people around us may do the same. Our family and friends, you know, may be well-meaning, but will say things right, like, “Oh, you know, he's not that bad.” Right. Or “You know, you should just be grateful that you have a roof over your head” Right? I'm sure you have a lot of examples of that. And then we end up also talking ourselves out of it, right? We do that number on ourselves where, you know, that, “Am I crazy thing?” and we, we know something isn't right or , we're not happy but we think either, you know, that's our fault or we're trying or we're talking or trying to talk ourselves out of how we feel or that we should behave differently and then we can change the, the situation, And, you know, a lot of the time, not that we shouldn't take personal responsibility for things, but in, in these kinds of situations, that really is not what it's about. Right. And, so yeah, obviously, domestic abuse is like, the very extreme example on the spectrum of, of these kinds of relation, you know, toxic relationships or something like that.

Sybil Cummin: Absolutely. 

Jessica Hornstein: So yeah, if you could maybe speak a little bit to that, you know, and really how that plays out in, in different aspects of these, these situations. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. It is absolutely a very extreme example. And even just in the definition, um, kind of the important, some of the important pieces of that is that it's a systematic process.

It doesn't just like one day things are abusive. They actually have been since the very beginning, since your first interaction with that person. And the other piece that is, it's hard to stomach. It's like we, the majority of people in the world want to give people the benefit of the doubt in these cases where it is, you know, power and control, it is willful. So, it's done fairly knowingly. Like there is a purpose, and I'm doing this on purpose in order to have this control over you. Um, so that's gross. But one of the main kind of tactics in their arsenal is that kind of, gaslighting, minimizing excuses. And they will start with that and give, you know, for whatever bad behavior they might have.

They may first say like, “Gosh, I'm, I am so sorry” and they'll feign remorse. And like, “It has just been the roughest day.” And because we are gonna give people the benefit of the doubt in general, we're like, “Gosh, yeah, you, you did have just such a hard day at work” and we excuse. And we excuse and we minimize.

And it's like, “Wow, I should have noticed he had a hard day at work. I probably shouldn't have brought that up right then.” And that continues. And so, in these relationships we're conditioned over time to look at ourselves, look to change ourselves.We stop even noticing our intuition. We just start to ignore it.

And then we do, we start to have this internalized gaslighting of, “If only I were a better wife. If I was better in the bedroom, if I was x, y, z, I'm a better parent. If, if our children were quieter. If I knew how to handle them, then this behavior from my partner wouldn't happen.” And so that happens throughout the relationship, and it happens after a lot of times too.

And so, I work with a lot of,—I, I do work with men because men experience abuse as well in relationships—the community I run is specifically for women. And so when we, you know, after they've left and we're dealing post-separation, and there's a whole other podcast, but our family court system allows or actually not allows, it supports abuse to continue post-separation.

And so you have to have contact with your partner so the gaslighting gets to, gets to continue. Right. Um, the gaslighting happens within the court system. Right. Just this idea that a high-conflict divorce, which I just did the air quotes around high-conflict because that is domestic abuse.

Right. Ninety-plus percent of high-conflict divorce is domestic abuse but the court systems believe it is both parties, both parties are at fault here and all the professionals around you will be looking to you as like, what is your, like, this is your fault too. Like even just the phrase of like, “Well, you married him.” You married him is gaslighting all in and of itself and, and that victim blaming. But even as I'm working within my community, there's this idea that my situation isn't as bad as, so I don't deserve your support or, I'm taking up too much space because I don't share children with my ex, so I don't have to worry about abuse of them later.

Or I wasn't physically harmed and you were physically harmed. I don't deserve, mine wasn't as bad. And so that conditioning that we've had within the relationship, and maybe even as kids, right? As children, like we sometimes learn that our feel, you know, don't cry. We've learned over time.

And so, it's just that constant conditioning to where we will also then gaslight ourselves as a, like, during that healing process after we've left. Yes. Um, so yeah, gaslighting is, is throughout the entire process of domestic abuse as you're healing from the people around you, cuz they don't understand, um, family and friends will say things like, “I just can't believe it. He's always been so nice.” And, and so then it's like, oh, you know, and there's an embarrassment to that. And, um, so yeah, it's just that like systemic process conditioning that keeps us stuck in that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, yes. To your point I mean, the fact is, is that we've a lot of the times, I think we learned in our childhood what to, you know, what we have a right to expect in a relationship. Right? And a lot of the time, for a lot of us, that was not, not a whole hell of a lot. You know, you don't deserve this or that or whatever, and you should just be grateful that you know, you're being fed or you, you know, whatever it is. but you know, to have hopes sort of beyond that is selfish or something.

Then when we're with a, we pick a partner who is going to reflect that, and then when we're with that partner, right, we can't see that, you know, that that's not okay. Right. It'll be harder just to have a sense of that and then, of course, the cycle continues, right? Because the children, assuming there's children from that relationship. Right? Well, then what are those children learning? Those children are then learning, this is what a relationship looks like, right? 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: And they don't have a right to expect, you know, that they shouldn't expect a loving, safe, secure relationship that, you know, embraces the whole of who they are and all of that. So, it just keeps perpetuating, I would imagine. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah, and it's, you know, the, victim parent very often, like while you're in it, you are just focused, even if you're not consciously focused on safety, your nervous system doesn't give you a choice. A lot of times you're just gonna focus on safety. “What's gonna keep myself and my children safer today? My children behaving perfectly, will keep us safer.” And so whatever I need to do to have them not bicker, not cry, do what I'm asking, do what their partner's asking, that in and of itself can kinda condition our kids to have, um, you know, start to, you know, not notice or prevents them from kind of emotional intelligence, like building that emotional intelligence.

And then kids, cuz they're brilliant and their nervous systems work just like ours do, they will learn very often to like their fawning response. It's like the fourth trauma response, which is like appeasement. They will learn that keeps them safe. And we're not always, again, when I talk about safety, it's all-encompassing.

Not just physical safety, but emotional. Emotional safety. So, if they are people pleasing and stroking the ego of the abusive parent, then, and they're seeing and their nervous system is like, oh wow, you're safer. Hmm. You're safer. Do this, always do this always. Do this always. They will then learn, this is how I stay safe in relationships and they will always do it.

Mm-hmm. And so that, you know, a lot of people pleasing comes from that fawning trauma response is, right. I'm emotionally safer or even physically safer when I do this. so that, again, perpetuates cuz there is a, an ideal target for someone who has narcissistic or abusive traits and people pleasing is one of them.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so it's sort of both. Children are learning it, first of all, from watching their parents interact. Mm-hmm. And the toxicity of that and that being the role model for a relationship. And they're also learning it because of the, sort of, the demands that it's making on their behavior and their responses to the situation.

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's coming at them. 

Sybil Cummin: They're learning. Yes. They're learning it from all over. Um, and they're learning, right, that emotions shouldn't be talked about. You shouldn't show your emotions because, um, for many reasons, right? If I'm crying, my parent gets angry, so I'm not gonna cry. And they'll say “It's not that bad.” Or they'll, you know, say like, “You're not sad.” You know, those things. And that doesn't just happen in abusive relationships. Right. That happens with busy parents all the time. Yeah. Right. Like, “Oh, I don't have time for this, you know, this breakdown right now cuz we're running late.”

Right? Yes. How do we respond to that? Right. Absolutely true. I'm a mama and do I respond a hundred percent awesome. All the time. No. Cuz I'm human. Right? And so, you know, it's like, not beating yourself up all the time, but really focusing on the repair, if you need to repair. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, yes. Also, it seems that, I mean, yeah, you're, you're denying—they're, they're being asked to deny their feelings. You're not sad and this and that, but it is also a case of, you know, being, asked to deny your reality.

Right. The children, like in, in families where it's not talked about, and again, as you say, it doesn't even have to be as extreme as domestic abuse. But when something's going on and nobody's talking about it, and it's the elephant in the room and it's obvious, and the kids know everything.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: You know, I was a teacher for many, many years and I am a parent. Um, and, you know, they know everything. They know what's going on but if nobody's talking to them about it, they may not know what it's about or how to characterize it and where to put it in its place and is it about them or not.You know, they don't. They don't get a chance to sort of have a real sense of reality, right?

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. And if, you know, there's overt, like they are sometimes overtly told not to talk about it. Or if child protection is called, it's like “You don't talk to that case worker. You don't tell 'em about this.” Or there's that, you know, covert threats or the covert rewards for not talking about it. And so they've, you know, they're conditioned to keep it a secret. Yeah. Yeah. And then when you keep things secret, you don't have a place to process what's gone on.

You can find yourself being like, “Gosh, did that really happen? Did I make that up? Did I exaggerate that? My parent is really cool sometimes, like, they take me to Disneyland or they buy me these things. Are they really as horrible as I thought, you know, as I thought they were?” Right. And so just the, the act of secrecy or that idea of secrecy also kind of adds to that gaslighting cuz they don't have a place to process what they've experienced.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. And they also, I mean, without that place to process what they've experienced you, they can't heal. They don’t get that opportunity to heal from it as they go on in life. Right. Until you can sort of tap into that experience, you can't start to heal from it. So it sets them up for the, you know, ongoing challenges.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Yeah. And what's really unfortunate and tricky is that sometimes when they are vulnerable enough to share the secret, like the family secret, nothing happens. They're sharing to get it to stop. They're sharing because they can't live this way. Right. They, they've been told like, these are your safe people. And then nothing happens. And so, then they're in trouble for sharing this, the family secret. And then they weren't protected. And so, then they've learned, I will never share, I can't trust anyone. And so, then they don't.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Right. Yeah. I think when children have a sense that their parents have stayed together for their benefit, their, you know, quote unquote benefit, I think that's such a burden for them to carry. You know, first of all, the parent who's, who's the victim. Right. You know, so they may feel like they need to caretake that person I'm sure there's a lot of responses, um, kids have to that parent.

Um, but also, you know, just sort of knowing if you come to a realization that your parents stayed together in the name of your wellbeing, which really just made you suffer, but also they suffered, your parents suffered. You know? That's such a, that to me, that seems like such an incredible burden for children to carry.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Because kids depending on age, right, they don't understand divorce, they don't understand separation. They don't understand like the falling in and out of love. They, right. They don't have that life experience yet enough to understand, or the abstract thought. And you know, so sometimes the comments from younger kids are like, “Mom, why did you make dad so mad?”

Right. Which then is heartbreaking and horrible for that parent, right. The victim parent. But then there is like a time when, you know, kind of like that late elementary age where kids that I see in my office—I'm a a child therapist as well—and they will be like, “Gosh, I just with wish my parents would get a divorce.”

I just wish my parents would get a divorce because they can't stand the constant arguing, the screaming, the witnessing of abuse, the feel of the house. Yes. Like they just want it to be over. And there is this still, which, you know, this was stronger, you know, when I was first starting in the field in the early two thousands, but there's still this idea of like the broken home.

And you know, we're supposed to be like, mom, dad, 2.4 kids, cat, dog, white picket fence, like happy family. Um, but the way I see a broken home is that needs aren't being met. So, it doesn't matter if you're together or apart, but if the child's needs aren't being met, that's a broken home. Right.

And so, if their safety isn't being met, their psychological safety isn't being met, um, their emotional intelligence, you know, that learning isn't being met. It doesn't matter if you're together or apart, it's a broken home. Right. For these kids. Right. And there's a lot of, I mean, there's so many barriers to leaving, which kids aren't gonna understand till they are much older.

So, it's this balance, but they, if kids like you are their safe person, and so if you are, there's a threat to your survival and safety, that is the scariest thing for our kids. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like that is scarier for them than their own safety. And so, because you're their, you meet their needs, like you're the person.

Right. And so, they will carry some of that burden. Some of our kids really want to protect that parent and will then hate themselves because they couldn't. Cuz can a six-year-old stand up to a big adult man who's hitting their mama? No. Like they're six can, you know, like, can a 12 year old stop financial abuse?

No. Nope. Right. Right. But they'll try and take on that role a lot of times. Right, right. Um, and then there's also a, a lot of kids who feel extreme anger because the victim parent isn't protecting Isn't leaving, isn't taking the kids out of the situation. There's not like, oh, well my child only goes this way. It's ebbs and flows and they'll shift based on development and what they understand and their experience. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. And I think so, so many of the effects Right. Aren't, um, evident until probably a lot later on in life too— 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. When they have the language—

Jessica Hornstein: —as they get older. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, back to what you said about a broken home, I mean, that tension, of just in, even if it, you know, if it's not physical abuse, but even if, you know emotionally right? Everybody's walking on eggshells. and, you know, there's just no warmth, you know, none of that, the kind of home you want children to be living in where there's warmth and caring and, consideration and, joy in each other's presence. Yeah. Um, you know, that's, that may seem so under the radar, but, I think it's so damaging, you know, it's so hard for them. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. It affects how our kids attach, you know, and what their attachments look like. And our attachments in early childhood really do have an effect on our longer-term relationships. It doesn't have to just be romantic relationships. That's where I spend my time working, but sure in all relationships. And so it is, it's really important to look at what, how does our home feel? Yeah, exactly. Right? If I'm nervous and anxious all the time and hypervigilant and my nervous system is going crazy, and I get headaches and stomach aches, and, uh, your kids probably do too.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Yeah. So, staying together for the sake of the children it's not, the best default. Um, there, there are times we understand where, you know, leaving is, is a challenge for various reasons, but all other things being equal, sort of that, that, um, motto of staying together, you know, I'm doing it for the kids is, is uh, a false kind of a false belief.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. 

Jessica Hornstein: Um, while we're on the topic of children, let's just, I'm curious because when you were talking about how people, you know, the things that people may use against their partner, you know, financial and this and that, and you mentioned children that they may use the children. I'm curious if you can sort of elaborate on that and give us more of an understanding of, you know, how do people use the children, to control their partner? 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. There's a huge range of this. On the very extreme range, they will threaten to harm the kids. And sometimes they do. Right. If the, if they are physically abusive and, and it no longer has the results, it wants the, you know, the perpetrator wants, when they're abusing you, they'll move to your kids.

And that usually, even just the threat of that has the exact result that they want. You will behave again, air quotes, how you need to so that your children aren't harmed. So that's on the very extreme end of it. but it, it varies the threat of “I will take your children,” or “you're so crazy no judge is gonna give you your kids. So if you, if you leave me, I'll get the kids.” Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: And turn them against you and 

Sybil Cummin: Yep. And so there's those elements. Um, there is like that in that financial abuse piece. Like there's, you know, if you do leave, are they gonna pay child support, hit or miss there? Like, no, a lot of times because they wanna continue to financial abuse that way. They will counter-parent. So say there's something, you know, your family has lived vegan for as long as your kids are alive, and that's so important to you. And that seemed to be important to them too, but that was just sort of a way to hook you and make you feel like they're your soulmate and, and whatnot. And then you separate, and they introduce meat into your child's meals. So, things like that. You know, they're not gonna back up your discipline or what you think is important. So, there's that way. 

Um, there is a term and there's, there's a, an inaccurate term that's out there that's parental alienation. That term is actually a legal defense versus a real thing. What it really is, is domestic violence by proxy. And so domestic violence by proxy is abuse through a third party. So, they'll use your child to first. It's kind of like that middleman, and then they'll use it as like, you know, being like the Disneyland dad and being super fun. And they'll be like, “Yeah, mom's not fun.” Or they'll promise a trip somewhere, but it was actually on mom's weekend. And so they'll be like, “Oh gosh, your mom just doesn't want you to have fun.” Or they'll plan, you know, a sporting, like, “oh, you've always wanted to play baseball.” And like, “Yeah mom, I wanna play baseball.” But all the practices are on mom's time and mom can't do it, or mom can't afford it. And they're like, “Oh, your mom just isn't gonna support your dreams, buddy.” So those kinds of smaller, insidious things that will come into play there as well. So, there's a lot, like a lot of ways for them to kind of use the children to continue that harm.

But yeah, the term, you know, and this is a whole other podcast episode, right, right. But parental alienation versus domestic violence by proxy, domestic violence by proxy. There, you can see patterns of it throughout, like throughout the child's life, throughout the relationship. 

Whereas the term parental alienation pops up, it's like, “Oh, wow. I filed for a divorce and all of a sudden I'm alienating. I see.” And so that, but there's, oh my gosh, it's like a whole discussion and everyone is very polarized about this, but if you look at patterns, that's kind of what we're, okay. The important thing to look at, like are there patterns of this throughout, or is it kind of like a, this just happened. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. And to me, I mean, this really gets me because, you know, a parent who's willing to put their kids in the middle of something is just, that's a whole other level of, how you, it's like you wanna hurt somebody else more than you love your kids, you know, like, yep.

You know, I'm not a perfect parent for sure, but you know, I can't, yeah. I can't imagine, not putting my love for them and my care for their wellbeing ahead like that. I just wanna hurt somebody so much that

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. That I wouldn't, you know, they will get harmed in the process. Right. And I don't actually care. If they're a tool to a tool in my arsenal, like that's what my children are. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's terrible. Um, you also had mentioned that you, you largely, you know, that your, your group is for women, but that, men do experience this as well, and I'm wondering if there are differences in the types of abuse that women typically experience and men typically experience, if you could share that with us a little bit. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Yeah. And it is, I mean, it is a gender-based violence to some extent. Like the numbers are pretty clear however, what people aren't, you know what people still again, are looking at as like more of that physical violence.

There is a higher lethality with a male perpetrator to a female target. There is, there's just physically it is scarier. Again, the risk of lethality is extremely high, so much higher that way. But what it looks like, the elements of coercive control are very similar when there is a male, victim and a female perpetrator, and then it looks even a little bit different when in LGBTQA families or, you know, families or, or couples. There's some differences with that as well. Um, but really any way that they can have power and control over their partner. 

So, it could be racking up extreme amounts of debt, and then it's your partner's job to fix that because it's all in their name. Um, using kids, women, you know, if you share children, women will use children against men, which is what makes like the family court system so tricky and muddy to figure things out a lot of times. They will do that gaslighting, right? Like, “You don't remember it. You, you know, that didn't happen. That's your perspective. You know, those kinds of things. No one will believe you.” 

Um, like more rarely, like it's not common, but a female, um, perpetrator of might threaten or might harm themselves and blame it on their partner. You know, people think it's like a lot more common than that is, but it has happened. and so yeah, it's like any way they can isolate you, because that, that's pretty common within a female abuser. Isolation is pretty strong. They'll make it, um, that you have no support. You just don't have anywhere to go and nobody will believe you. Even if there is physical abuse from a female to a male, no one's gonna believe you. Right. And “Wow, you're not even a man. You can't take a hit from a girl.” Right. There's like those elements at play too, when there is physical abuse.

Jessica Hornstein: I would imagine with, there, there's enough stigma as it is when it's a female victim. I would imagine for a male victim, I mean, whether it's physical or emotional abuse, any, you know, anything, it's much harder for them to acknowledge and come forward Yeah. With that. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Yeah. And for people, even to name it, I know when I've had male clients and I'm working with them, and they did not come to see me due to, they'd never used the term like domestic abuse or domestic violence at all. And as they're talking, I'm like, “Well, that's, that's actually domestic a abuse or domestic violence.” They're like, “No, no. Like, I'm not scared of her.” And I'm like, “Let's look at different forms of being scared. You may not be physically scared at all. Are you scared for your children? Are you scared for your career? Are you scared for, you know, your financial wellbeing, like are there other ways of being fearful?” Yes. Um, but they're like, “Nope, nope, that's not right. That's not it.” 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, so that speaks to, how do, people begin to identify, you know, when they, if you're in a situation, I mean, I'm trying, trying to think of sort of how this journey goes and, and obviously the first part is really identifying that you're in this situation. Yeah. Right. And then after that, then there's all the decisions to be made about what's to be done about it, which I know is, you complicated. Um, but you know, going back to what we were saying at the beginning, you know, you're talking yourself out of it all. And, and so, what would you have people ask themselves? I mean, if they're listening, they're in a situation and they're like, I don't know. Is this okay? Is this not okay? I'm I, you know, I feel, I'm not happy or I feel, I feel, um, like something's wrong, but, I just don't know.

You know, like what, what kind of questions can they ask themselves to sort of get to the bottom of that ? I mean, I know, you know, right there can't advise everybody on here, but as a starting. Lots of thoughts of, um, to help people sort of assess, what they should be thinking about.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. I think if you are asking yourself if you are crazy. Am I the crazy one here? That's a huge warning sign, A huge red flag because abusive people don't ask that of themselves. Because what they're doing is okay. In their world, that's okay. This is how they work in their world. So, if you, you know, are like, “Gosh, am I an abuser or am I, am I crazy?”

That's kind of your like red flag warning sign in the moment. Um, I think really focusing on like, do I feel fearful of saying the wrong thing? Doing the wrong thing? Am I ever scared for my kids? Right. Am I parenting my kids to protect them from this person? Right. Um, so those are some questions to ask yourself in that moment.

And then kind of as you get a little further along, really starting to identify, it's called cognitive dissonance. And so that's when you have two really opposing, Thoughts or your behaviors don't match your value system. So, like the, “I love him, I fear him.” That's a pretty big red flag. but it could be like, “I would never let someone talk to me this way. I stay in this relationship and I allow this to happen. I am successful in all these areas and am confident in all these areas. I will not speak my mind at home.” Right. Um, kind of those, those types of things. Or if family and friends have said, and, and you know, initially it's like, no, I haven't, you've changed or whatever but if they're worried about you or they've been like, “Gosh, you used to be so like bubbly and alive and you just are a ghost, or you're vacant, or you're, you know, whatever that is.” And then the other piece, if you feel really alone. So, you have family, you had friends, and you have no contact with them or very little, or your partner would get angry if you had contact with them.

Those are really big warning signs that you are in an abusive relationship. Yeah. And if you google search, like, is this narcissistic abuse or anything like that, it is like it, it probably is. Mm-hmm. So, if you find yourself Google searching, that's a red, that's like the hugest red flag. Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: Because you already know. Right. Deep down you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard because, part of what happens in these situations right, is that your sense of self gets so eroded. Yes. Right. And your self-doubt is, is, is huge because you have somebody basically, you know, as you say, systemically, telling you in one way or another, whether it's overtly or covertly, that you're not worthy, you're not valuable. You're not lovable, you're not acceptable. You're crazy. You're imagining things, all these, all these things. Right. So, it's, yeah, it's so hard to, to get from that place. To have the awareness that you can, you know, feel confident in like, “No, this is what's going on and this is not okay.” 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think the reason why the majority of, there's a couple reasons, but one of the main reasons, the majority of, survivors I work with are women, or are women with children, is because they weren't enough to maybe leave. Right. The abuse of them, they didn't feel worthy enough to leave. When it shifts to affecting their children, their children are worth it, worth it enough to figure this out. And so, I think that is why I work with so many survivors with children with their partners, because that element of, oh my gosh, this is happening to my children too, and I will do anything for my babies.

So that's when a lot of people start to kick it into high-gear, realize it like that this is abuse, and that they may not, again, have felt worth it worthy enough to leave just for them. But they may consider it if their children are being, they know. 

Jessica Hornstein: Or it's affecting them in some, yeah. In some really negative way. Yeah. that's a very good point. Thank you for making that. so how can we, how can we support somebody in a situation, if we have a friend and family member, whomever, that we're, we're pretty clear that they're not in a healthy situation. you know, it's very hard to, you know, until somebody right comes to a realization themselves and acknowledgement themselves of, of their situation, it can be really hard to, to talk to people about what we see and to be supportive in ways that are supportive rather than, them feeling criticized or, shamed or, you know, things like that. Um, so what, what suggestions do you have of what we, you know, as outsiders to a situation like that?. Like what is most helpful to say or not to say, and what is most helpful to do or not to do and and maybe, maybe make a, maybe there's a difference, well, there is a differentiation between whether the person in the situation is aware that they're in the situation or not.You know? And I'd imagine there'd be different answers for both of those. So, you can, if you can touch on those, that would be great. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. I think the number one thing to remember is that it's not anyone else's job to kind of take on or replicate the role of power and control in the situation. When we see someone hurting, we want to help fix it, but the thing that's taken from them that they need to get back is autonomy. And so we should not take away their autonomy. So, forcing someone, you know, really pushing them to leave faster than they are ready for, or having like conditional love ourselves. Like, I can't spend time with you anymore if you're gonna stay with him. You then are not a safe person because on average it takes someone seven attempts to leave an abusive relationship successfully.

Wow. And so, patience is a really big deal if you don't understand completely. Cuz some of these stories are like Netflix worthy, like, you're like, what? Like who would do that? Like that is crazy. And it might not sound believable, but give them the benefit of the doubt of this is, this did happen so that they don't have to defend themselves because they don't have the energy to do that. And then again, that makes you feel like a not safe person. So, kind of believing and it's okay to say, wow, I don't really understand, but I want to. I think a question to ask is not like, “Are you okay?” Cuz what are they gonna say? “Yeah, I'm fine, I'm just really tired.” Or whatever. Right. The question is, or the statement might be, “I've seen some things that make me really worried for you. Do you feel safe?” And that, that question can be asked more than once. Cuz at first that might be the scariest question that they have heard because they've never shared the secret. And so, they might be like, “Yeah, you know, we're just in a rough patch right now. Um, but we'll get through it.” And maybe a couple weeks later you ask, uh, something similar, like, like, “How are things going?

You know, I noticed these changes. Do you feel safe? Or is there anything you need?” And then having resources kind of at the ready, because I think that prevents a lot of women from leaving successfully is they don't have the energy to be online, or it may not be safe for them to be online searching for domestic violence resources.

Right. Like, is their email being monitored Probably. Mm-hmm. Is their phone being monitored? Yes. So, you know, kind of finding like, if you can get the resources for them, great. If you can help them with that. And kind of some of those logistical things, like if they're gonna go file for an order of protection, who's gonna pick up the kids from school?

Right. So, offering those tangible resources of like, “Hey, if you need, if you ever need to take care of business for, for this, I am happy to watch your kids for a couple hours. I'm happy to drive you.” Like those really tangible things. Cuz when we are in, you know, a true kind of crisis and nervous system crisis, we need more support for basic functioning. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. You're so overwhelmed and flooded. Yeah. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. And so if you can help take some of that off their plate, that is one of the most beneficial things you can do. And then just listening, just being present. And then also to protect you. You've gotta really be aware of your boundaries because you might be hearing horrible things. They may have told you horrible things and went back. And you're like, Ugh. Like, I wish they would just leave. Like, I love them so much, I wish they would leave. It's hard for me to hear this. And so it's okay to say, “Wow, this sounds really hard. I'm not in a, you know, a place right now, like a safe place to listen. Like there's people around me or, or I wanna give you kind of the space that you need. Can we touch base at this time?” Right. And setting boundaries for you too, so that you don't burn out because that person needs you. So, making sure you're taking care of you if you're helping in this realm is important too.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. And when you say it takes somebody on average, seven times to leave because you just, youwere just saying the example of, if they, you hear these terrible things and then they go back. Is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about like they will physically leave, like remove themselves from the situation and then return. Because that, that what counts as leaving on average seven times before?

Sybil Cummin: Um, or they'll have all their stuff packed and they'll be getting ready to go and they've made their decision like, I'm leaving, I'm leaving. Partner comes home. Either there was like a really scary threat for them to stay or it's, it's called Hoovering, which is a gross word, I think. I don't like it. But where they'll draw them back in like, no, like, “Do you remember?” And they'll paint the picture of what could be, right. And the person will say, “Okay” and they'll stay. Right. “Just stay for one more night and you'll see.” And so, but there is like plan to leave. Some people have filed divorce filed and go back. Some people have filed for orders of protection and go back. And so, it's good to know that like if you're supporting, cuz it is, it seems crazy. Like it does. It's like what? Like they're not safe. But a victim actually, and this sounds so backwards, a victim knows how to stay safe, right? They're still here.

And so very often the way that their nervous system is kind of now set up or conditioned is their partner comes home, they throw the mail on the table a certain way, and their nervous system is like, beep, beep, boo boop, like a computer. And now they know how to act tonight so that no one's harmed. Right? Right. So, then all of a sudden they leave and they have no indication of where their partner's mindset is at, where even physically, where is my partner? And so, their nervous system's like unsafe, unsafe, you need to know these things. You need to know these things to stay safe. So sometimes they'll go back because they feel safer if they can know where their partner's head is at that day. It's like, yeah, if you're on the outside and you're like, “What? That's so crazy. What they got the order of protection? Why would they allow him to break it?” Very often it is because their nervous system is like, you are not safe. You are not safe. You need to know where they are. because that's how they've maintained safety for the last however many years. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Or your kids too. Mm-hmm. Yes. Like, and I think, , a lot of people feel this in any divorce, even when the partner isn't abusive, you know that feeling, that first time where your kids go off with their other parent and you are like not there maybe for the first time to kind of really be monitoring, you know, and, and again, not even when they're dangerous, just, you know, you have things you want done a certain way or whatever it is. Um, it's a scary moment. 

Sybil Cummin: Yes. You're no longer the buffer. You're no longer able to make that, you know, decision of like, tonight is movie night with popcorn, keep the kids quiet tonight to keep everyone safe. You don't, you don't have that. 

Jessica Hornstein: And you're not controlling also the, the spin.You know, you're not there to sort of try to make sure they're not saying something about you or whatever that is. Yeah. 

Sybil Cummin: So, yeah. Yeah. It's like just being kind of allowing them to find their own way with some support. Sticking around, not questioning. Like don't say “I can't believe that he's always been so nice to me.” Nope. “Why didn't you tell me? Or why didn't you leave sooner? You know, if I was hit the first time I was hit, I would leave.” Right. Those statements are, are pretty judgey. Yeah. And they will then deem you not safe. Like you're not a safe person. And so, then you won't get to. And nobody says that with malintent. It's really cuz you can't believe it and you're mad and you care about your person, but they will deem you as not safe. Sure.. You know, your support is, is gone.

Jessica Hornstein: No, that makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, and you know, and I always, I mean, you can tell me what you think about this, but I think so many times when people don't leave relationships, you know, when you have. an abandonment wound yourself. You know, when that's part of your makeup and your attachment history and all of that, even if you're the one doing the leaving, you feel abandoned. Like there can be that sense, like that you're being left in a way. I feel like that sometimes plays into, the challenges people face with leaving really toxic relationships.

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. There's, there's so much grief around it, and the, the part that is, it's devastating. It's so devastating when we're, you know, working with survivors is the whole thing was a scam. Like you fell in love with someone who is not real. They're not even a real person. And the dreams that you had that were painted for you were never real. They were never gonna happen. And so that piece can feel like that real betrayal and abandonment because you were so vulnerable with this person who was not real. And who used all that against you. And so it, it is so harmful. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. And it's just letting go of that hope. Right. Like, you know, but you, you, as you say, I mean, what you're grieving is the dream. You know, you're not, you're not grieving the reality. You're grieving the, the loss is in that dream letting go of, of that dream. If you, if you separate that from what the reality is and you see the reality isn't a loss. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. You know, to walk away from that, so many of my people are like, well, I don't miss him at all, but I miss like this idea. Yeah. They don't typically miss the partner. Right. Like the actual person. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. You wanted to have this happy family and you wanted, all these things. So, well this has been so helpful. So thank you for everything you shared. One last question where can people find you and also, you know, where can people find help if they're in a crisis situation? 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll speak to the crisis situation cause I think it is really important if you're a, a support person, um, there is an organization called domesticshelters.org. And so, you can just Google search that. And the reason I always share their information is because they are kind of like the hub. So, no matter what state you live in, they have some international resources as well. Um, they can get you to the right place so you don't have to search, you know, your state, your county, your this, you can go there and they've done the work for you.

Jessica Hornstein: Okay, great. 

Sybil Cummin: Um, they have all of the, you know, crisis lines available. They have all the advocacy agencies available. They have lots of information and safety planning and like, it's just a really good hub of information. So that's domesticshelters.org. It's a really amazing resource.

Um, and then to get in touch with me, my community, and that, that company is called Rising Beyond Power and Control. So, we have a, a membership community where survivors come and, connect and we do, some support groups and um, kind of like strategy coaching for post-separation abuse, communicating with your partner cuz you still get to parent with them to some extent if you have children. Then we do like a lot of court strategy, family court strategy in that community. Lots of resources there. And the website for that is www.risingbeyondpc.com. And then if you wanna listen to me blab on about different things, about, you know, all things kind of healing from these relationships, I have the Rising Beyond Podcast that I started for this community and, and this population. It's very specific to this topic. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, I could listen to you blab on all day, but I'll have to go to the podcast to do that. We have to go now. But, um, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And thanks everybody for joining us today. 

Sybil Cummin: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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