Taking Charge of Change in Our Lives with Dr. Anancia Stafford

• The transformative force of letting go: making space to embody a more expansive and fulfilled version of yourself. 
• How to step into your power and start aligning your choices with the belief that you deserve the life you desire. 
• Using the question “why?” to get honest with yourself and get to the bottom of what you want to change in your life. 
• How to build the confidence to know that you can navigate big changes, even when they’re scary. 
• Why discomfort may be exactly what you need to get unstuck, and why it may not be as uncomfortable as you fear. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford received her bachelor’s degree in Psychology, her master’s degree in Clinical Mental Health, and holds a doctorate degree in Counselors Education and Supervision. She is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor, an adjunct professor in the counseling department at DePaul University, and the CEO of the mental health private practice, Inner Peaces Counseling and Consulting LLC in Chicago, Illinois. 

She also is the author of It’s Time to Get on Track: A Mood and Behavior Tracker. Having extensive clinical experience with a wide range of popul,ations and mental health conditions, Dr. Stafford currently focuses on self-esteem, codependency, depression, anxiety, and self-accountability in adults and adolescents. 

Dr. Stafford on IG: https://www.instagram.com/drstafford_/

Dr. Stafford’s book, It’s Time to Get on Track: A Mood and Behavior Tracker: Find it here.

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*Music by Sam Murphy*
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Transcript

Jessica Hornstein: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes, feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually there is something fundamentally right. So, join me and together, we can all feel a little less crazy.

I have Dr. Anancia Stafford with me today. This is gonna be good. She is warm, smart, and not messing around when it comes to self-accountability and taking charge of changing our own lives. Dr. Anancia Stafford received her bachelor's degree in psychology, her master's degree in clinical mental health and holds a doctorate degree in counselors’ education and supervision.

She is a licensed professional clinical counselor, an adjunct professor in the counseling department at DePaul University, and the CEO of the mental health private practice, Inner Peaces Counseling and Consulting, LLC in Chicago, Illinois. She is also the author of Its Time to Get On Track: Mood and Behavior Tracker. Having extensive clinical experience with a wide range of populations and mental health conditions, Dr. Stafford currently focuses on self-esteem, co-dependency, depression, anxiety, and self-accountability in adults and adolescents. Welcome, Anancia. Thank you. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Thank you so much for having me.

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you for being here. When I, when I first heard you speak, I was like, I need to talk to her. I, um, I just love your energy and the clarity that you bring to the topic of self-validation and taking charge of your own life.

So, we have an hour and you're gonna just straighten us out, right? 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Sure.

Jessica Hornstein: Seriously, so many people are really stuck in lives they're not happy with and they, they just can't see a way out or they know what they have to do, but they can't quite bring themselves into taking the steps they need to. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Um, a lot of times we, um, we start to kind of envision what it is that we want. We wanna be happier, we want to be whatever it is, put the "-er" at the end. Better. But we don't take the time to look at actually what it is that we're doing that is contributing to our current situation, or, you know, what are the circumstances creating for us?

What kind of experience is it, uh, giving to us? Because it's scary, it's painful. Once we see what's actually laid out there, then we have to think about, "oh, well now what do I have to do to get all of this stuff out of my way?" And that can, that can cause people to run into self-doubt, just really not knowing what to do because they don't have any direction.

And for the most part, usually starting to change requires stopping doing a lot of the things that are actually happening. The first step of starting change is stopping doing the things that are getting in your way. And so, slowing down and really taking inventory and practicing self-awareness, where are you, what's, what's your mind's environment like? How do, how are you, uh, talking to yourself?

What's your relationship with yourself like, the relationship with the people around you, and your occupation? You know, there's tons of things to take inventory of, but we have to slow down and really just be in the moment and take inventory of what's happening before we can make any changes or figure out what it is that you specifically need.

We have to see, you know, where there might be some lack or there might be some cycles that are keeping you there in the first place. 

Jessica Hornstein: So how do you, get to that? I mean, because there's so many layers, right? Um, of why people are in those places.

So how do you, how do you begin to, to really honestly look at that, right? Because I think a lot of people, maybe they, they think they have what they want, or they think they know what they want. But something's still off and it doesn't feel right, but they, you know, they can't quite get to, to what it really is.

So how do you get like honest with yourself, like, “okay, come on”? 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: My favorite thing to do is to just “why?” yourself? You know, just ask yourself why until you get down to the bare minimum, till you can't go anymore.

And, um, like for example, if you're saying something like, Well, I'm so unhappy here at my job. Okay. Why? Well, because the boss isn't paying attention to me, or I don't get along with the coworkers or the job, just, it doesn't suit my passions or whatever the case. Okay. Why? Well, because I'm actually passionate about something else.

Okay. So now we're at a piece where we're saying, “I'm not in alignment with my job and now I'm unhappy, but I have this other passion that isn't being paid attention to.” Well, why aren't you doing that? And then we get a whole other realm of whys to go down, go down a rabbit hole. What we tend to do is we tend to, um, protect the things that we're familiar with unconsciously. You know, “well, I've gotta do this because I'm, I'm too old now to, to, to go another direction toward my passion, or I, I can't do this anymore.” And, uh, when you create those why statements, those why questions, you kind of disarm these, you disarm these excuses that you're making. “I'm not at work at this job that I hate because I have to, I'm actually here because I think that I'm too old to do what I'm actually passionate about.”

Ooh. You know? And as we were saying before, I think that a lot of people don't really sit down and question why they're involved in these circumstances that they're uncomfortable in, because they're afraid of what the answer's gonna be. You know, and, and quite frankly, sometimes the answer is scary. Sometimes the answer is painful. But that, um, unwillingness to feel these difficult emotions to get to your clarity, to get to some kind of movement is what often keeps people stuck. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. sometimes probably people don't believe that it could be possible, right? I have a passion for this instead of this, but there's that fear too that if they go after it, it may not work out the way they want. So just don't, they may stay. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: A lot of people internalize other people's invalidation. You know, they, if someone says, oh, you know, those, those professions don't, and I'm just going with the career example, those professions don't make that much money. Or you've got, you've gotta be this age, or you've gotta look like this or sound like that. People internalize these messages that they get from society and, you know, they can get these messages from family, from friends, and things like that directly or indirectly, and they make that their truth.

When we start to make these external perspectives and judgments our truth, we rob ourselves of, the space to even determine how we truly feel about if we can do it or not. If we wanna do it or not, you know? And, and self-validation comes from, turning down the noise from the external and, really asking yourself that why. Really asking yourself about your own values and how you feel about it. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to have some doubts. That's normal. Bravery and courage, need fear in their definition, right? They have to happen with a little fear there. That's the only way you can be those things in the first place.

So, when you mentioned the belief part, it's all about your belief systems, but if you don't know what belief systems you're operating on in your subconscious and your unconscious, then you're gonna be like, “no, this is reality. I really can't do it” and nobody can tell you anything different until you're ready to really challenge your core beliefs.

Jessica Hornstein: Right, right. So much of what we believe about what, what creates our, our self-worth, comes from those messages. So there's the why we ask the why questions, and then we get to that point where we realize, “oh, okay, you know, like, yeah, so I can't use that excuse anymore. And, um, that's really, you know, not what this is about.” And maybe it becomes more clear what would make you happier. Yeah, right. What is more in in alignment with who you are or what you want or, you know, all of those things. So then, you know, but then what, right? Because people hit that resistance. You know, they keep going, but, but, but, but I, I can't, I, uh, I, I will maybe come back to me next week, next month, Um, yeah, so like, there's that, threshold, right? They have to push past. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: You know, I'm guilty of this at times too. So, you know, it's something that requires constant self-love, constant self-care when you get to that raw space where it is just you and your truth and it's kind of brutal, sometimes it can be a relief, um, to, to really come to your truth. Now what? Uh, some things that I like to do with my clients is I then have them visualize an ideal self. If no one else had, you know, any influence over your life to the best of your abilities, imagine what life would be like for you. What would be that career? How would you feel in a relationship? How would you feel with friends or family? When you looked in the mirror, what would you be saying to yourself? And, um, really have them create that as a real character. And then we look at where they're at now and kind of map out, well, what would be required for you to acquire these things? What's the barriers? What are the supports that can help you get there? So, it's all about like, really starting to get clear with, now you've got your raw truth, your raw values, and using those to create, at least in your mind, a visualization and then a plan to get there.

Okay? So that's the technical part. People can do that. But the other part is really learning how to love yourself through it all, through it all. Because that fear is going to come, because now we're going into the unknown. Now you're letting go of the crutches and the excuses and the, you can't blame anybody else for your decisions anymore.

And it's going to feel a bit intense, you know? So, so I think the other part to this is learning how to accept where you are learning, practicing mindfulness and affirmations. I know people think affirmations are cheesy, but we think terrible things about ourselves every day. Those are still affirmations. They're just affirming the things that keep us stuck rather than affirming the things that help us forward, you know, so you're, you're really learning a new relationship with yourself and a new relationship with your goals, if that makes sense. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah, that does make sense, for sure. And that, that self-love seems really important because, you need that core so strong because, in any change, I mean, even if it's for the better, you know, and even if it's, it's going after what you want, there's, there's some loss, you know, whatever you're leaving behind, even if it's something you didn't want, right, there is a letting go of that. And you know, it could be more extreme, right, where people let go of relationships and other people in their life who don't agree with the choices they're making and things like that. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Oh yeah. I'm so glad you brought it up. Um, your world does shift when you start to own your truth and validate yourself a little bit more. Everything changes, and again, it can, some things can be for the worse and, and you, you define what that means. Some things can be for the best, but, some people may let go of you once you start loving yourself a little bit more and becoming more in alignment, you know, and these are real things.

So, I definitely wanna validate here, if anybody needs to hear this, that the things that you might be afraid of experiencing may absolutely be real. Real things, real pain, real loss that might come along with making the shift to be more in alignment and, and get unstuck. It's, it's real. And sometimes that, that can be really comforting to hear because you know, you're not, you're not crazy.

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you. Thank you for that. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Drop that in there. But you're not crazy for these intense feelings that you feel about what's to come after you really shake up the dynamics of your life. Cuz other people and things are attached to that. There is inherently going to be a letting go of something. That's what we are intentionally doing. We're letting go of our focuses, on this, this particular version of ourselves, particular mindsets, relationships, and we're trying to create different kinds. So, you have to be willing and ready to let go of something. That can be paralyzing sometimes though.

You asked too, what are some tools, what are some ways people can, go into their minds and try to shake something up a bit? I always like to ask people what is the worst case scenario? Our brains are comfortable going to the worst case scenario, so let's just go that path, path of least resistance here. And, and I, I have people describe what's the absolute worst that can happen? And usually when we, you know, have that conversation, either we realize that we are catastrophizing we're like, you know, oh, life is gonna be over and actually no, it's just gonna be really uncomfortable.

Then we can open it up and talk about, well, how do you handle discomfort? You know, is the way that you're coping with transition and difficult times healthy? Let's learn how to be healthy through those things. And then the worst case scenario doesn't look so bad after we really examine what our fears have created as the possible outcome.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Both because what you're afraid of happening may not be as big and also that you have the sort of the confidence to know that you can navigate it even if, if hard things do happen. Yeah. That's a really, yeah, that's a good point.

So, you, you come up with a fear, whatever that is in your, your particular situation. Like, “oh God, I'm terrified this is gonna happen and you know, my life will be a mess or ruined or something.”

How do you make it, you know, feel manageable or feel, and, and not just feel manageable, but also, you know, feel worth it? Because I feel like, and some of what I do with people, is, um, making bigger, like, amplifying what the positive benefits could be on the other side, right?

Yeah. So, you know, the, so the fear voice and the negative benefits, gets a little smaller, It's the, the carrot on the stick, to give people something to remember here's, here's the end goal, there's, there's something, that I really value there that, keeps you going.

What would you do to give them that bravery, or that courage, to, to keep moving towards what is really right for them?

Dr. Anancia Stafford: It's kind of something that I do with my clients all the time, And sometimes it's really difficult, because our brains are so strong.

Break things down into doable pieces and start small. Start small, you know, if, if you're not ready to, you know, switch careers just yet, right? Or you're not ready to have that difficult conversation with your partner or your family member or friend just yet. Start small by setting goals in your day and completing those tasks. It can be completely unrelated to what it is that this ultimate change you wanna make.

But what this does is it gives you more confidence, it builds your trust in yourself. If you get a little bit more organized in your day, best you can, cuz you know, I'm not, I'm not, uh, the guru at that. But, you know, once you start to see that you can create a goal or a task and you can do what you need to do, get the resources you need to complete it, whether it be turning something in on time or getting into a meeting on time, or whatever the case is best you can, you start to feel a little bit better about yourself.

That's a small step towards, “okay, now let me kind of turn the ante up on the particular goals that I'm setting. Maybe now I can make one step towards my bigger goal of maybe I can start looking for jobs, or maybe I can start writing out what it is that I wanna say.” And then the next, you, you know, know what I'm saying.

And so don't be afraid to start off small, because this kind of can be intense and you wanna bring that compassion to yourself. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, you feel like those little steps, like that, can translate, like, so that confidence you might feel, um, “okay, I got this done, I got that done, I'm, you know, look at me, I'm on top of it.”

Um, you feel that you, you can make the sort of, the, the leap from that to a confidence about your emotional ability to navigate things or your ability to navigate emotional things, right? Because that's different, very different than like, “oh, I, you know, called the electricity company. Yay me.”

Um, you know, like, I got that done today, you know, which is pretty awful to do, actually. So, I don't, I don't wanna minimize that, but, um, but, you know, but it is a different kind of, of step, right, of activity. So going from that to “oh, I have the strength to have this difficult conversation or move on with my life in some way.”

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah, I think that there is, you know, that's why I say gradual steps, because what we're building there is just, you are creating anchor points for you to move towards. If you're feeling stuck and you're not doing anything, or the things you're doing is not effectively moving you forward or helping you accomplish things, then that's a part of you that you just haven't practiced yet.

So, practicing being that version that accomplishes things, that sets a goal, that moves towards it, does help you practice problem-solving skills, being resourceful and things like that to get you to the point of then now creating goals around this bigger issue there. Okay. So now I'm training myself to get things done. Now I'm meeting myself at the bigger things. Now when we come to the strength of processing through things, I think that that takes a different kind of route because, you know, I don't think, even though being on hold for 45 minutes with the electric company is a lot, you know— 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. That is an existential crisis, all of its own.

Dr. Anancia Stafford: But yeah, it does require, a couple of other skills when we're going a little bit deeper into those things that we're trying to do to move forward. But that baseline of, of that confidence, that learning how to pull yourself forward is absolutely a skill necessary and a foundation.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So, what you're talking about sounds to me like, for people who are sort of like at the beginning of this process maybe, of starting to explore something isn't right. What do I, you know, do I do, how do I get out of this? Why, why am I unhappy or something. For people, you know, I talk to them, I'm sure you, you talk to a lot of them, um, you know, who, who really know what the source is of their unhappiness, who even have, you know, may have a very clear vision of what could make them happier—and they know what they need to do to get from where they are to, to what life could be. I mean, you know, this can go on for years, right? 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. A lifetime. 

Jessica Hornstein: A lifetime, right? Which is so sad, because don't we all deserve to live that best vision, and, and live a life that's in alignment and not, not sort of settle for an emptiness and, cutting off parts of yourself and your needs and desires and all of that?

So, yeah. What would be the approach you might take with somebody, where it's a, it's a chronic stuckness, right? Like it's, it's been there for a long time. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Well, well, one, as a, as a mental health advocate, of course, I would ask if there is some underlying, underlying mental health things going on, which comes a part of analyzing self and seeing what's going on there, because I don't wanna minimize someone who may be suffering from depression or some other things that might be going on that, that literally taps and zaps those parts that they need to be able to take the next step. So, had to say that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, of course. that's a very good point. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: The other part though is now I have to be direct and now we're talking self-accountability. And I'd ask, “why do you feel like you deserve the life that you're living?” “Hmm. Well, I don't feel that way.” “Okay, well, if you don't feel that way, if you don't feel like you deserve what it is you're experiencing or that you know you're involved in, then why are you involving yourself in it? And why are you having it as a part of your life?” Then usually here come the excuses. Here comes, uh, now I'm protecting myself from the fear of the unknown. Should I choose something else? You know, and then, then we have to explore that. You know, why don't you trust yourself enough to figure out how to navigate the unknown? Everyday is the unknown.

Unless of course, you protect things that you know are gonna give you a particular outcome, regardless if it's good or miserable, you know? And you're creating this life just because it's familiar, just because you have confidence in navigating it, So I'd like to challenge people. Why are you protecting a life that is not serving you so tightly? What's that? Is it because you think you're supposed to, your family wouldn't approve if you did something different? What, what is that there? And that typically opens things up a lot if people just kind of sit there and ask themselves that. 

Jessica Hornstein: That is such a great question. Yeah. That's, that really is the heart. I mean, that is the heart of it because if, if you're not changing something, there is a piece of you that is accepting it as this is what you deserve, or this is all that can be. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. Yeah. And that can be, I've, I've asked that question and I've seen people like, like have the stuck face and they're just like, no, it couldn't be, you mean it's me all along?

Now this isn't to minimize what other people, how the impacts that other people can have in your life. Right. So, I'm, I definitely wanna be mindful of that. However, I just don't think people believe in their own power. You have the power to create the kind of life that you wanna live. You know? And, and you have to realize how you're using that power. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Well, and I mean, and of course like to what you said that, of course, other people have an impact. So, somebody could be treating you badly or you know, or there's a dynamic that just doesn't work for whatever reason.

Um, but then yeah, it's on you to walk away. no, I'm not here for this. And that's, that's the, that's the self-accountability part that you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: And the scary part. I get it. It's not easy work here, you know? Uh, definitely have to pace yourself, but, uh, we, we have to own our power either way. When, when we are actively making decisions to invite something or to sustain something in our lives, that's us exerting our power. We have that choice to say, you get to be a part of my life. Then we turn around and say, but I hate it. You know, how, how does that look when you put it out on the table? You know, I hate these beans, but I'm gonna eat them anyways. Why do we feel like we deserve that? 

Jessica Hornstein: Hmm. Yeah. That's so powerful. I mean, it's so simple. It's like so simple. But there's something about the way you say it, you know, it's like so powerful. It's so clear. That really is the heart of it and, and not making a choice is also a choice. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Right. In so many ways and that, that work, that can work for you and that can work against you. Right. I'm, I'm not making a choice to, kind of honor this old narrative that I had of myself that I didn't deserve better, or I didn't deserve great things.

I'm not gonna make a choice that honors that, you know, or it's, I'm not gonna make a choice to move forward because I don't wanna shake anything up that makes a big impact as well. And a, a lot of times when I ask people to, even if they don't believe it, uh, tell me why you're powerful.

You know, tell me, tell me your strengths. Tell me how powerful you are. I'll ask people that who I don't see, feel like they really actually believe that they're powerful to put them in a position to challenge their mindset and the narrative that they have of themselves. So now they have to step outside of, I am not powerful, and identify in what ways are you in control?

In what ways are you powerful? It's really hard to tell yourself that you're not in control when you've just listed, I forced you to list, ways you're powerful. You know, I've created some cognitive dissonance there. Now you can't say, well I'm powerful because I've made these decisions and then go back to a narrative that says you can't change anything about what's happening in your life.

So, discomfort. you know, we're afraid that discomfort, but discomfort is exactly what we need in order to get unstuck. I say do you wanna be uncomfortable in a way that keeps you stuck? Or do you wanna be uncomfortable in a way that actually moves you forward? That choice is yours every single day.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's a choice between potentially being uncomfortable forever, right? Or, or being uncomfortable temporarily to then get to a comfortable place, which I think is, is when you say the, um, what is it? Uh, the, the soft life. The hard, um, 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Oh yes. The hard work for the soft life. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen that trend of like, I want a soft life and, you know, like I, I've seen the videos on Instagram where it's like, some, some woman, and she's surrounded in flowers and the sun's hitting her, she's like, I've got the soft life and it looks so peaceful.

And I'm like, that is absolutely a real thing that can happen. But you know what that person probably had to do? They had to face their fears of walking away from those toxic relationships. They had to stop overworking to the point where they were too burnt out for their family or the people that loved them. They had to create time for themselves to be able to sit there and sip that tea and, you know, they had to budget to be able to afford that trip. There's a lot of those icky things that cause so much stress that we tend to put them on the back burner just so we can survive day to day. 

And you know, I have to say this, the past three years, the world has completely changed in so many ways and that word lazy, I've been hearing a lot. Oh, well, I've gotten lazy, no, your mind is just trying to do the best that it can. Get through, right. And process, you know, things the best that it can so that it can bring you to the next day. I don't believe in lazy. I don't think that people who are stuck are lazy. There is something there that is so overwhelming that they haven't figured out yet, or maybe they do know that is holding them back. Either I don't know how to do it, I've messed up so many times before, so I'm just over trying, tons of things could be there. So, I, I think that it really is important though, to, to definitely pace yourself when you're trying to embark on change because if you have an overwhelming task, or you have tons of things that are actually necessary for this change that you want, if you try to take on all that stuff at once, you are going to put yourself in a choke hold.

You know, you want this soft life, you've gotta be kind to yourself throughout the process too. you know, break it down. So, um, back to your point of the, the hard work for the soft life. Yes. Those tasks, that task list, those things that are intimidating, they have to be done, but you've gotta be organized and strategic on how you're approaching those things. Otherwise, you don't get to sip tea on the side of, the mountain talking about how soft your life is.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. That's, that's the surface level of a soft life, I would sort of translate that into a peaceful joy in your heart and soul. Right? Like, that's the goal. If I were to think about a soft life, I would, I would think of it that way.

There's hard work to get to that, to that place. And it's not gonna happen by avoiding fears and it's not gonna happen by some kind of toxic positivity It's, it's gonna require some digging in.

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Um, and, the more that we avoid fear, the less we know how to handle it. You're, you're, we're supposed to feel fear. That's just like feeling happiness, feeling, you know, joyful, whatever the case is. Fear is a natural emotion. It helps us survive. That's how you know to run away from a bear that's coming towards you. But sometimes, when that, that muscle isn't exercised, that resilience isn't exercised, it makes sense that we are a bit afraid to feel fear because we don't know how we're gonna handle it, you know? so I, I encourage, people to invite fear closer because quite often fear highlights what you desire.

Mm-hmm. It highlights what you desire and you can create goals through your fears. If I'm fearful of losing the relationships around me, that highlights how much I actually value connections, intimacy, and having a support system around me. Okay. But that has to be healthy. So, it might not be the people that are you're around, but it does sound like a goal in which you can open yourself up to, to bring people who align with that into your life.

You know what I'm saying? 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, yes, yes. I do know what you're saying. That makes so much sense. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. Fears are like the key actually, we we're running away from the very thing that can give us a, you know, a glimpse in deeper into ourselves that can help us get unstuck. It really does, create magic.

Jessica Hornstein: How do we sit with it? Because that fear comes up, right? And as you were saying before, you know, like we're, you know, we're averse to discomfort in general. You know, nobody wants to be uncomfortable. It's not fun. You know, it doesn't feel good. And we, and we may not always be able to sort of hold both things at the same time. Like, okay, I have to have this discomfort for the longer-term goal, you know, the short-term discomfort for the long-term goal. Um, so instead we may just reactively like, "oh, discomfort, no, no, no, no, not, not doing this." So, you know, when that comes up, the discomfort, the fear, those feelings, what do you recommend or what would you do with somebody to help them sit with that and, and, and not run away, you know, to let it stay to explore it, to be curious about it, to digest it, and to know that they, that they can navigate it ultimately?

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, specifically because fear and, and those emotions paired with it can be very physical, right? Our hearts can start racing our hands, palms, sweaty. Sometimes we can even get like somatic symptoms, like stomach aches and all that other good stuff. What I'm gonna say sound counterintuitive or just is odd, but, practicing discipline and learning how to feel that feeling effectively without making a decision based off of it. So, what I'm talking about is mindfulness. and I'm gonna sound so much like a therapist right now, but practicing some physical activity like yoga that paces you through sensations that are uncomfortable in a safe way, that teaches you breathing techniques because you're going to need to be able to kind of breathe through and be more in tune with your body and how it actually feels.

What that does in our brains is, is it's allowing for you to tell your brain that you're safe, even though your body is having this very extreme uncomfortable reaction to your thoughts. When you're able to practice that, like, "I'm safe, I'm okay, it's all right. Now let me tune into what my brain is doing," then we've got the magic happening there.

Then you can go and sit down and just write out and journal what's in my head right now. There is no right or wrong way to journal. You can write words all over the paper. You can, you know, try to find a song that matches how you're feeling and that let that inspire you. Right? But it's about slowing down, coming in tune with what the feeling feels like and pairing it with an activity or a thought that you are safe.

Because fear hurls us into fight or flight. And quite often people are stuck because they're stuck inside of a fight or flight response. You know, that fear that was, um, programmed in, into our ancestors that had to fight bears and lions and stuff to eat, that still trickles down.

We don't have to do that anymore for the most part, you know but our bodies still respond to fear just as if we are actively in danger. It doesn't care if it's just, you know, it's, it's, uh, fearing going to speak in front of a meeting or fighting off a bear. Same reaction. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, and unfortunately, so many of us, like we don't even have to go back to our, our, you know, ancestors. It's like our childhoods taught, taught us that response or, you know, whatever experiences we've had. So, it's absolutely, you know, it's very present, right, for, for so many people, and easy to, to trigger, to trigger that fear. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yes, but practice pausing. Pause. Once you feel that fear, don't make any decisions when that feeling is in your body. Slow down. And then when you get yourself back to a calm state, be it through any of the things that I've said or any other way that you know how to bring your heart rate back, then you can kind of take the information that was brought in your mind during that feeling and process it.

Jessica Hornstein: Okay. So, revisit it then in that state and see if you, if you have new information or a new perspective or of some feeling of movement, that some inertia has been broken or something. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Because sometimes it's hard to think, you know, I can sit here and say, well, when you're feeling the fear, do all these wonderful, amazing things when what's biologically happening is your prefrontal cortex is shutting down and you don't have your executive functions anymore, you know? So then once you're through it, then do the processing. That may be helpful for some people whose fear is that intense. 

Jessica Hornstein: And what if, I mean, if it's something that's with you like all the time you know, cause a lot of us, ruminate, right, especially when faced with a decision or, something that, that we know has to shift. And it may not even be an acute fear. I mean, maybe it is when we stop to think about it, but, but it's just sort of this like, ongoing, like this thing like poking at us all the time. I think we get used to that too, you know, like that becomes normal for a lot of people, just to feel like that. And that becomes a whole, a whole way of life, being in a situation you don't wanna be in or, or that doesn't feel right to you, but also the kind of constant conversation you're having with yourself, you know?

Yeah. And the, the feeling unhappy and that, that sort of becomes what feels normal. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. It's not even like a thing that you can even identify or pinpoint almost because it's just embedded in the way that you understand things. That's when, I think that it's important to question the, the emotion then, like, why am I, why am I afraid? Why, why, why, why? Because we are having to dissolve this mindset, you know? Um, and, and you might find, you might have some very real things, like you said, there might be some things that you've experienced in childhood or in your life that validly, you know, supports why this is a fear for you. But once you get down to the why, then you have to ask yourself, what am I going to do about it now? Once you've created that awareness that I understand why this is here, and you ask that question of "what am I gonna do about it now?" you've created a break in that, that loop, you know, now you're recognizing that you actually do have the power to do something about it now.

And it's gonna be really uncomfortable to say, I'm not gonna do anything because now you are recognizing that you're giving this nothingness, or this stagnation, or whatever it is that you're experiencing, permission to stay, you know? Now it doesn't always happen as clean cut as that. Um, and again, I wanna mention that sometimes it could be in diagnosable anxiety or something like that, so I don't wanna oversimplify this process.

But I do think that it does make a big difference to really understand why that is the mindset in the first place. That can provide a lot of clarity. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, if somebody's ready to make a change. Let's, let's go like take a little step further, um, down this path. So, they're ready to make this change and they know what they need to do. They've done all these little steps to feel stronger, um, and then it's just kind of that last push, right? Because as much as there's like little steps, little steps, little steps to change, it's always that final step that is, is always gonna be a leap, right, even if you've just taken all the incremental, as close as you can get, but that, that last piece of it is always like, boom.

Right? Yeah. and, and you know, that's hard. Um, so how would you prepare for that last big step, which, you know, in some ways you can't really prepare for. I mean, so maybe I'm asking you a really unfair question here because it's, it's into the unknown, And so, so yeah, you can't, but, but if you could, what would you say? 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Um, yeah, what I would say to those who are trying to figure out how to prepare for that leap of faith is, this is actually something I can't answer because what's required is trust. You have to trust yourself. If you have done all the things that you needed to do, you understand your why, you've got the next steps, you've got your resources, what else do you need? It's time to break out of the patterns and peek into the unknown, you know. And the trust comes in knowing that you did everything that you could to propel yourself forward.

There could be anything on the other side. Now, this is the raw truth. You could fall flat on your face. You could fall flat on your face. You could not be well received by others. And all those things we talked about in the beginning. But something's gonna come from that. You know, you're now, you're, you're in this space, but you recognize that you have a choice.

You understand that there's things that you can do to get unstuck. You might have even set yourself up to have supportive resources and things like that in the event that things didn't go the way that you needed them to. So, it's a win-win situation. Even if you fall flat on your face, you're going to find something there.

You're going to develop in some kind of way that's going to allow for you to handle challenges and setbacks better than you did the, the first time, the second time. Hopefully, not the third time. Um, so, right. So, it's about, you know, releasing this expectation that it has to be perfect now. I, I did everything. Now the next thing that I do, I have to get everything now. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right, while being open to that, it might, like there could be all sorts of beauty on the other side, right? That's, that's what you're aiming for. and you know, I think living in your truth, if you're living your truest self, you know, you're really in yourself, in the truest version of, of who you are. Yeah. That counts for a lot. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: For a lot. 

Jessica Hornstein: How you move through the world and just how you, you feel on a daily basis, even if everything isn't perfect in your life, which it will never be. But better it's not perfect, and you're living your truth, than it's not perfect and you're wearing a mask or suppressing huge chunks of who you are or whatever it requires to, to stay where you are. Yeah. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. And think about it this way, there is an art to quote unquote failure. I, I don't believe that failure exists until effort stops, you know? But if we're gonna go with the, the idea of failure, there's a way to fail and the way that we fail in a way that is ineffective is when things don't work out or we're just misaligned with things in our lives, we tend to internalize it and take that as a sign that we don't deserve to be happy.

And that is the most ineffective way to experience a setback or a failure. The most effective way with something that requires this art, which requires a lot of what we're talking about, is to feel your feelings. Yes. It sucks. You don't, you don't, didn't get what you want. It didn't turn out the way that you wanted it to.

Okay. But now what? You know, those are circumstances that didn't pan out, but, but now what? Does that mean that we give up on the happiness and the goal and the dream? You know, we get to make definition over what that means, and we have to make sure that it isn't one that shuts us down or invalidates our dreams, our right to be happy and healthy. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Yes. And I've found, I mean, personally, um, when I've made some really tough choices, which I have, um, you know, what it gave me was hope. You know, when you're stuck, you don't have hope. Yeah. You're just like, “oh, this is okay, this is what my life is gonna be?” Right? Yeah. Like, oh God. And you make hard choices and there may be uncertainty, but you have hope, there's, there's relief from having made the decision, I found, yeah. But also hope, like, okay, now, now I have that chance, I have a chance to have that life that I wanted, you know?

And that, gosh, that makes such a difference. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like an, that was almost like, an instantaneous feeling of like going from yeah, just kind of resigned. Yeah. To, okay, like now what, what can I make, what can I make happen now? Or what can I bring into my life now? And, you know, how can I, as you said, it's taking power back, right? Absolutely. Rather than just sort of throwing your hands up in the air and being like, oh, well I guess, you know, that's it. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, this is the one life like this that we're gonna have, so shouldn't we try to make it work?

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah, because why not, that's the biggest question here. Why not? But yeah, I think something really important that you're talking about is you kind of see yourself more after these tougher decisions. You're like, wow, that was tough. I felt all those emotions, I felt that fear, the grief, the sadness or, or excitement, whatever the case is and now I'm on the other side of that decision and I still have all my fingers. I still have my legs. I'm still, you know, I still have, you know me. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Well, and more of you, I mean, not even just that you're intact, you have reclaimed so much of yourself, you know, you're like, oh, I'm, I'm back baby. you know, like, oh, there I am. Oh, I remember her. You know, it was like that. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. And I, and I always like to keep it real. There might be times where you make a really hard decision and you question the heck out of it because there is a process of, of transition and a, a decomposition of things to make space for this newer life you're trying to create.

So, I wanna like really highlight that that is absolutely a part of some of these bigger decisions. And it doesn't mean you're in the wrong space. You can't overlap the new life onto the old one. Something has to fall apart. And grief is a part of that sometimes. You know, that's okay. It's actually necessary for you to recognize what you're letting go of and what you need to kind of react or respond to. But, but what you have to react or respond to, to actively release it out of your energy you know, they can't be a part of your story anymore. So, I always like to highlight both sides. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's true. And I, yeah, and there, there can be space for both at the same time because yes, even in those moments when I made my choices and felt overall, felt a new hope and a new peace and all of that, it, it didn't mean that everything was easy and perfect.

There were hard things too certainly. and so I think, yeah, I, I'm really glad that you said that because it is so, it's easy to hit that point where it's hard and you go, “oh God, I made a mistake. Like, you know, what am I doing?” And then you just go back to your old patterns or, you know, you scramble ,right, to like, you know, crawl back under that rock or, you know, whatever it is, because it's hard. But it, I think it's a really good point that it doesn't mean that you're in the wrong place, you know, and it, it, it's, it's just a natural part of the process. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Um, one of my favorite things, I, I was like on a YouTube binge, I don't know if anybody else, well, I know other people do this, just went down a YouTube rabbit hole and somehow I ended up on a video about butterflies and how they transition, right? It's like, oh, okay, well we know this. They, they crawl, you know, the caterpillar crawls into, it's, it's cocoon. It's called something else, but they crawl into their—

Jessica Hornstein: Chrysalis. Yeah. I was a, I was an elementary school teacher, so I knew all that stuff. Yeah. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Um, and then the, this process happens and then they come out beautiful and they fly off. Right. Um, but the, this was like a scientific video about what actually happens during this transformation. And I sometimes tell this to some of my clients because as you know, they, they have to find a spot. They have to take their little legs and use what they got and create this space for transformation for themselves. That's not necessarily the easiest thing to do with the little arms. But, but they do this, and when they go inside of this, this space where, where they're, it is just them raw. Completely come undone. Warning may turn some stomachs, but they melt. They disintegrate into something you wouldn't be able to recognize. And I compare this to our transformation sometimes when we're making those hard leaps. It's a journey. There are parts to it. You have to pace yourself.

And when you create that space, you start to get rid of all the things. You're taking control of your environment. There's something magical that will happen that can be very painful, which is the letting go of that old identity that somehow convinced you you deserved to not be fulfilled. And transform into this newer version of yourself that is more open and welcoming and is more expansive in its perception. We can't skip that process. And there's nothing that I could say, nothing that you could really say to soften that process. It's just about trusting yourself and understanding that for anybody who is making these changes in their lives, they're going through the same kind of transition.

The social media, oh my God. Social media can paint this very warped idea of what growth looks like. Self-love, self-care, making hard decisions. It's not just waking up, making a cool mushroom coffee, and journaling. That's not it, you know, the crying, the feeling lost, the, the, you know, questioning yourself and that that's all a part of it because you get to answer it. You get to learn how to soothe yourself. You get to learn how to be more resilient and create space for difficult emotions. That's what happens in this process, and you come out anew. So that's just, that's something I definitely wanted to share. So just normalize what it is that you're, you're trying to advocate for right now.

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, yes. What we think of as self-care—I mean, self-care may require difficult, uncomfortable decisions. It isn't always, you know, like, oh, spa day or whatever. to really, truly, deeply care for yourself, it, it may not always, feel like, uh, the way we, we want to feel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Do you think it's fair to maybe for, for perhaps to have people ask themselves that, if I'm stuck, in what ways might I not be loving myself, or not taking care of myself or honoring something about myself? Because as like, to your point, self-care, quite often, more than, more than a spa day, quite often, um, requires those tough decisions and that discipline and all of those things.

So I'm wondering, uh, you know, what, what your point of view is on if you're feeling stuck, maybe asking yourself, what parts of myself might I not be paying most attention to right now or caring about right now? 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, a lot of the times it really is about not playing the long game. It's that short term, you know, I'm gonna avoid pain or I'm gonna keep my, you know, certain things easy or familiar or whatever and that feels like think you're protecting yourself, you think you're taking care of yourself but you're really not. So, I think it's, it's about really not giving your deepest needs and desires and your core self, that love and not honoring it, which may require, or almost certainly requires playing the long game a little more and, foregoing the, the immediate sort of comfort, even when it's a, an unhappy comfort, you know?

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. Yeah. I, I like that. It sounds like, you know, my stuckness might be a coping skill, you know, unconsciously, because if I choose to honor the, the, those other parts of myself, or practice that self-love, it's gonna require some delayed gratification and some investment in those tough feelings.

Um, yeah, I just, I like that perspective of um, just kind of pairing if you wanna get unstuck, just try to figure out how you can love yourself and honor yourself a bit more and see where that leads you first. you might start to see the parts of yourself that you're ignoring that, that need to be heard, cuz they've got the information on what the next step is to take.

Jessica Hornstein: Right, right. Well, and I saw something you posted once that you can't heal. I, I'm gonna completely butcher what you said, um, I apologize in advance, but it was something about how you can't heal when you're keeping yourself, in the situations around the people, whatever, who are, who are causing your pain. I don't know. You can tell me if, if I'm even close at all, but it was something, it was something to that effect. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: It's hard to heal when you're in the fire, is how I usually say it. You know, we're trying to heal burn wounds while we're still burning. Logically how do you go and do self-love and you get everything all put together, but you have a group of friends that do not believe in you, and they sabotage you. They plant seeds of self-doubt or, you, you don't feel safe in your home sharing your dreams or your goals. But, but you need that in order to move forward. And, you know, there's tons of different situations that I can go down a list when people are trying to move forward and, and get themselves out there, but their environment is causing them to have to tap into a version of themselves that is not it tuned into this newer, visualization that they have for their lives.

Jessica Hornstein: There's a role they're expected to play. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. And, and we can subconsciously tap right into that role so that we can survive, so that we can get through. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think a lot of people cope by trying to do those more superficial self-care kind of things, which really can be just escapism. So, it's like, oh, I'll go do this for myself. And, maybe you feel good while you're doing whatever you're doing, but you're still going back to the life you're living. Right? And so, those things are not really, you know, they're not gonna shift anything.

I mean, look, I like to put TV on at night and shut my brain off, you know, that's nice sometimes. But it, you know, those things don't, they don't move you forward in, in your life and in your process and your journey and becoming who you want to be or having what kind of life you want.

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. I mean, you know, we're talking about the, the coping actions, like the, maybe going shopping or spa day. I know that that's what we're referring to, which spa days are cool. All that stuff is cool. Um, but we're not changing the themes of our lives. We can do those actions, but we still return to a theme. The theme of relationships, the theme of self-concept, which is so huge here. You know, that's still, that is still there. So yeah, we gotta do what we gotta do to get from day to day. You know, by all means, do your things that make you feel great. Make your bed when you first wake up. All that good stuff. 

Whatever, whatever works for you. But what are the themes that you're experiencing? And, and do those resonate with you? Do those make you feel good? The same way that buying that thing or watching that game or whatever distractions that you have provide to you that that's the meat and potatoes of it.

Jessica Hornstein: And you're talking about the themes, like the bigger themes like your, who you are in the world or who, who, your connections and those kinds of things. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. The life that you have set up, the circumstances that feed you your experiences. If those are still the same, then we have to make sure that we are not getting too distracted in the, the, the small things that brings us endorphins and all that good stuff.

Jessica Hornstein: Right, right, right. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Because you may not have to do that in order to feel that good if you pay attention to these circumstances and themes that, that lie underneath the surface. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Right. Well, I think there's a big, there's a distinction between taking a break, right, which we all need. Like no matter, you know, you could have the healthiest, you know, happiest life and, you know, you still need a break sometime. Like, we all have to, to take breaks. But there's a, there's an important distinction between taking a break from normal everyday life and living a life you need to escape from.

Absolutely. Right? Like, that's an important distinction I think sometimes people miss. Yeah. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Yeah. Yeah. And, and how do you tell the difference between the two? Right. The productive distractions and the unproductive distractions. productive distractions are complimenting the way that you already feel in your life, it's just adding on.

You're giving yourself that space and that love to help you live the life and support the dreams that you've put into place. And then we have the unproductive distractions. Sometimes those unproductive distractions kind of add more drama or more sadness or more pain. Um, and sometimes they make us feel good, but they're, they're pulling us away from what's truly important to us if we're, if we're living a life we don't wanna live, in, in aspects of like our satisfaction with our job or our relationships.

If that thing is pulling you away from the fact that you don't have a job that you like or that you don't have a relationship that you feel comfortable or safe in, then we have to say, all right, hold on now, let's see what we're doing here. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, it's a way to not have to address it. Right? Yeah. You're checking out Yeah. I think if that's, yeah, if that's what you're saying. Yeah. 

So, as we, finish up here, if you were gonna tell people one, you one last thing about, self-accountability, in creating change in, in their lives, what do you think is the most important thing they should come away with today? 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Okay. I'll say that ironically, everybody, we're supposed to get stuck. We're supposed to get stuck sometimes because that is the indicator that something needs to change, that we need a better alignment. We might be growing, we might be expanding, so we need more or different.

So, try not to label or judge being stuck. Just understand it as a signal to now tap into your power and figure out how you need to adjust what you're experiencing to align with what's inside. And as it pertains to self-accountability, understanding that no one else can do this for you except for you.

This, this has to become an inside job. And, if we start looking outside of ourselves for other people to tell us what we should be doing, what's best for us, there's bound to be some misalignment. So, so one stuckness is supposed to happen. It actually helps us evolve. It's there to help us evolve. The accountability piece is to use it for such, when you are stuck, that is the time for you to hold yourself accountable on your power and start to create what the next version of yourself or the next circumstances are going to look like.

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Yeah. And I love that because I love both of those and how they come together because it really speaks to, knowing yourself and part of that is knowing that you are changing, right? Yeah. So what was true for you 10 years ago, five years ago, a month ago, last week, this morning, may not be true for you now. So, the more you really get in touch and know yourself. Then you, you can know what's right for you and you, you have a better chance of, taking those steps.

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Evolution's gonna happen and you just gotta keep up with it. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you so much for being here. I loved this conversation. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: And I'm glad you invited me here. Thank you so much. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah, thank you. And if, if people want to find you. Where can they find you?

Dr. Anancia Stafford: They can find me on my Instagram. It's at Dr. Stafford underscore, and I am posting mental health tips and encouraging words on there. And I'm also, making reels and videos on topics very similar to what you and I have talked about here today. And yeah, I interact with the audience, so if someone wants to leave a comment or shoot a message, I absolutely would love to talk to them.

Jessica Hornstein: Great. I love your content, so yes, I recommend everybody go check it out. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Thank you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, it's been such a pleasure. And, um, I look forward to more conversations with you. 

Dr. Anancia Stafford: Absolutely. Anytime. 

Jessica Hornstein: Great, great. Take care. 

Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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