Choosing Your Truest Self in the Face of Uncertainty with Gabriel Ayuso

• Identifying signs that you are not embodying the fullest expression of yourself. 
• Why you can move forward when you stop fearing your fear. 
• How to begin naming an undefined feeling that your life is out of alignment with your core. 
• Discovering hidden pieces of yourself at any age that are crucial to living the life you’re meant to live. 
• What you can do to free yourself from invalidation and self-doubt when society diminishes, dismisses, ignores, or judges your experience.       

Gabriel Ayuso is a parent, coach, and trans guy who has made self-realization into a lifetime endeavor. In his work with others and in his own life, he has seen first-hand how critical is that we overcome invalidation and social conditioning in order to learn to love and trust ourselves and become who we are meant to be. He believes this is the pathway to a kinder, transformed world.

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*Music by Sam Murphy*
IG: @sammmmmmurphy

Transcript

Jessica Hornstein: Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes, feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually, there is something fundamentally right. So, join me, and together, we can all feel a little less crazy.

Today I am joined by one of my best friends on the planet who I met back in 2015. We had a lot in common. We were both single moms, we were both out there dating. We were dealing with a lot of the same life circumstances, and she became one of my closest friends. Fast forward to 2020 and she came to me and said, "I have something to tell you." So, with that, I would like to introduce my friend, Gabriel Ayuso. We've talked, I don't know, a million hours? I'm really happy we're getting to talk here. 

So, let's, let's tell that story.

We talked about everything all the time, and I knew there was something going on. You weren't ready to share all of it yet, you said—kind of over the course of time, like a year or so—you, you mentioned that there was something you were sort of grappling with, but you weren't quite ready to, to tell me yet. And then one day you came to me and let's take it from there. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Well, what I told you at that moment. I told you I'm not a woman. And I mostly left it at that because it was what I was ready to share at that point. What came out from that is what happens normally, right, is this place where you feel vulnerable and uncertain, and then you suddenly put a different world of relationship between two people, and you don't know how that works.

Jessica Hornstein:  Mm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: And then you need to navigate that. And that's freaking scary because the, the thought the fear is, is to lose everything, even, even with the people you most trust. The fear is always there of losing and and, and feeling, alone, basically, which is what we are most afraid of, right?

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. I think everybody has that fear for one reason or another. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Isn't it interesting that, as much trust as there is between two people, when things are big, it takes so much time and like really dealing with uncertainty to be able to just, even with the people you most trust and you know, will be safe. I mean, isn't that interesting?

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Did it feel like you had to get clarity on it yourself? More like, integrate it more before you were ready?

Gabriel Ayuso: If there's one reason why I totally subscribe to the name No, Not Crazy, it's because that's exactly the feeling, right?  

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's like, it's like when you're dealing with something that it's not been explored before or widely accepted, um, and you are seen in a way that it's not congruent to how you feel, your mind goes to every kind of explanation before just facing the difference. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Because differences are just plain difficult to deal with. I mean, we can talk about gender identity, but we can also talk about sensitivity, right?

Um, we can talk about, like so many things.  

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: And yeah, it takes, it takes quite a, a lot of time to be, I wouldn't even say comfortable enough because you're still not comfortable enough. I mean, that would be a lie. That's, that's another point, right? 

Jessica Hornstein: It's not, it's not to snap your fingers kind of thing.

Gabriel Ayuso: Not at all. Not at all. Especially when, you know, telling people about something that it's really vulnerable, that it's really difficult to share. 

I've seen all through my life that whenever you are invalidated, that feels huge because that's somehow feeling that you are wrong or lacking or something. I've been invalidated for being, a highly sensitive person too. Just I didn't know I was, was a highly sensitive person at that point. Right. And that frankly hurts too. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, yes. 

Gabriel Ayuso: When we are denied who we are. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. I think there's something maybe even in that term, highly sensitive, that puts that measure on it of like, here's normal, normal, sensitive, and then higher, you know, Mm. Yeah. You know, which then leads people to say you're too sensitive and that, that sort of thing. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Hmm. Yeah. It's a double-edged sword, right? Yeah. Because on one hand, it can have totally that effect. On the other hand, it helps us understand that because many people don't have that level of sensitivity, that explains the reason why they don't get you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right, and why you experience things in ways that are different. 

Gabriel Ayuso: So, I know this is one of the things that has actually helped me most is just actually gathering knowledge and talking with people who know because, um, because that gives you the tools to really move forward when you really get the actual knowledge of what it is and how it works and how it is not wrong

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah, yeah. So, you come to me and say, I am not a woman, with all that vulnerability and, the unknown of how, how I will react or anybody else in your life, even though you know, we love you and that you can trust us, but it's still really scary. 

And then what happened next? And how did it feel, is the question? Once, well, you had sort of taken that step to share? 

Gabriel Ayuso: There's kind of three stages to this one is, when you begin to realize, I mean the previous stage is just feeling plain wrong. Like this is just like, just plain wrong, wrong. And you don't even have the concrete grasp of what's going on or why do you feel so wrong? It's just there, which puts you in a permanent state of anxiety.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. So, so like, you felt like something you knew something wasn't in alignment within yourself, but you weren't even quite sure what that was yet?

Gabriel Ayuso: It's like, it's like you are wrong everywhere you go, and you don't know why. And that's freaking awful because you cannot even do anything. You can just kind of survive. Right? So that's what you do. You survive and you keep, you know, trying so many different things on the planet to try to make yourself feel, feel better.

And go searching everywhere around you. Like every kind of thing that can help you somehow feel better with yourself and with the world and just plain freaking understand what's going on. The good part of that is that you learn a lot and that you grow a lot. 

Jessica Hornstein: Oh, you learn a lot. Yeah.  

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. So that's 100% good. And it's good. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's growing into your own skin, really. Right? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Absolutely. And also learning to be comfortable with something that isn't, which is something that is invaluable, but that you learn later. Then one day even, if you're 45, which sounds kind late, but yeah, that's it. It's like you kind of stumble into what was that? And you didn't even know because you didn't have the representation or the images or the words or whatever, whatever is the case. And this can happen with many things. We're talking about gender identity here, but it can happen with, you know, Like, I dunno, I, something that comes to mind, many women who, um, who have Asperger's or other, another, 

Jessica Hornstein: Um, something on the spectrum. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Exactly, yeah. Or something on the spectrum for women that's really difficult to, to diagnose because of adaptability and, and you can come to it at a really late age, and you didn't know, and then suddenly everything makes sense. So, it's something like that, right? 

Jessica Hornstein:  Mm-hmm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's out there, then something goes and click when it's something as big as whether, uh, a spectrum thing or a gender identity or any other kind of thing, then what comes in is that I'm crazy. I mean, this is not possible. We are so ingrained with the denial, that then, all the invalidation comes from within and that's when the no, not crazy comes in. The other way around, sorry. When the crazy comes in. You know, it's like, then it's like, and this is so interesting‑the brain does every kind of hoop and jump to try to talk you out of what you feel is true. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right? Right. Well, I feel like that's because we internalize so many of those messages that we've received without realizing it, you know? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Absolutely. 

Jessica Hornstein: Whether it's from society, from family, from wherever, and it just becomes part of our, our belief system or our narrative without realizing it usually, so you don't, you don't have the framework to, to even have that distance, right. Or that space to, to look at it objectively and, say what is this about really? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly. That's exactly it. I mean, all these voices internalize from previous voices, or even not just voices, because it doesn't have to be spoken. It just is. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's everywhere. It's all, It's everywhere. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's kinda, yeah. It's just is. No, and that is is so big that we internalize it so strongly that then, it's easier to believe that we are going crazy, like, literally crazy than believing something that we feel is absolutely true. And you know, like the flips and flops will do to try to rationalize out anything that is different and difficult. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So, and it's true. I mean, I, you're, it is really everywhere. It is infused into everything we do, everything, right, has, has a message to it. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Absolutely. When you talk with anybody, anybody, they see you in a certain way. They don't even have to say it. It's the way, it's that, it's that sight from the other. Right. It's the way they see. You could say, "Okay, but that's, that's not me." 

But that's how you've been perceived. And then as social creatures that we are, right, we internalize that as the right way to be. The right way to be, you know, with people we love, with people we relate to in society, in places we are. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. We all have roles whether it's gender or, you know, what role we play in our family Exactly.

The easy one, the difficult one. We all have— 

Gabriel Ayuso: Exactly. And getting out of that role, even when it, when it is really difficult to hold onto it, it's so freaking hard. And, and it's important to understand that because the amount of uncertainty that plays into breaking that mold because let's face it, I mean, if it were easy to be ourselves, we would already— 

Jessica Hornstein: We would all do. Yeah. Much healthier planet. Yes. And yes. 

Gabriel Ayuso: So, if we are not, it's because it's difficult. It's really, really difficult. Yeah. Because it puts it in a, in a place of plain uncertainty and, and the feeling is unbearable. The fact of not knowing what is going to happen if you step into that is overwhelming. It's, it's one of the most difficult sensations, emotions, feelings to have. Right. The, the not knowing. And the thing is that we won't ever know until we do it. 

Jessica Hornstein: Sure. Do you feel like in hindsight now, from, the time and the understanding you have now, is it clear to you at all, like where most of the messages came from that you internalized? Is there one way that you feel affected you the most in telling you who you were or what role you needed to be and, you know, stay, stay in that lane, or can you not parse it out? Is it just too, too pervasive in everything? 

Gabriel Ayuso: I have two different answers to that, and that depends on what we are talking about in terms of invalidation.

If we are talking about invalidation, about gender identity, for example, it was just plain in the air. It was just plain obvious. Not obviously, but right, that you are born a certain way, that's what you are. You know what you like guys, so you know, you're born to this. You know, it's so ingrained in what it's supposed to be. And that's the hardest part of it, right? 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: If it's so obvious, I really must be crazy, like, my brain really doesn't work right? 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. And you're absolutely right, we look to every other explanation and will blame ourselves. Rather than no, this is the truth. Here's actually, I know what I know, right? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Exactly. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's in there. Yeah. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: A different example, It's about relationships, right? And about being who we are and needing what we need.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Been there, been there, been there, done that, done that. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Because how many messages we get about what we need is wrong. Yeah. And these are verbal, these are in terms of mood and feedback from the other person's behavior. This, uh, widespread belief that needing something is wrong.

Jessica Hornstein: Is wrong. Yeah. No, you're right. And we twist ourselves into a pretzel trying to be okay with what we're not okay with. You know, we know something doesn't feel right and we just keep saying, "Well, if I'm, if I'm more this or if I'm less that, or I'll just, you know, I shouldn't be so blah, blah, blah" and we just contort and try to make something work that's not gonna work, you know, because it's not true, it's, it's not true for us. Right. Absolutely. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It’s never going to work. Ever. And we believe that. I mean, how many times did I tell myself, you know, at that time, it's true. It's just because I'm too needy. And then actually you realize that, come on, the other person just wasn't available. It's just that plain.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Well, and we can know these things in our head, right? We can know all these things intellectually. But we don't always, trust the feeling, right? Like we know in our head, you know, it's okay to not want this. And in our bodies, we feel like something's wrong. But we, we can't integrate them and take that step and, and move away from what we need to move away from or move towards what we need to move towards. Right? 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's, I think it's important to talk about this. Because when you feel something, it's not cohesive, that thing you feel true is not as solid. It's not as solid— 

Jessica Hornstein: Like as defined. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Exactly. Not as defined. Yeah. Like thank you. That's the word. It's not as defined. It's something more subtle. It's something you know, that you kind of grasp with something that is not necessarily your rational mind and it's not necessarily an idea, or belief you have.

Right. So, it's completely amorphous, but I think that's true with everything that is true, really true for us, in our gender identity or everything. I mean, not everybody has the same experience.

Here, I'm talking about mine exclusively. I cannot talk about anybody else's experience, but mine, for me, it was not something as solidly as hating my body, but something way less tangible. More unsubstantial, which is about feeling right into who I felt I was. So that's when the difficulty comes in, because trusting something that is not solid and that you have not actually tested out because you could, you couldn't ever, right. Because you're dare to how, how can you trust that? Right. That's hard. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-mm. Okay, so let's go back then to your, your journey on that. What was that next stage? You're, you're feeling like, “I'm crazy. I must be crazy.” What's going on? And then, how did you then move to that next stage? And what was that next stage? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yes. Yes. The next stage was something I talk out of order at the beginning, which is the two things that I think at least most helped me in this situation, which is first, knowledge.

Like understanding, really understanding what's that, right, so learning. I, I, for myself, I used books. I love reading, so I used books. Then I used YouTube channel and people's experiences and then, which is something I really believe is important. It's talking about an expert about it directly about your case. Because even though you get the knowledge and you get the ideas about it and you begin, that gives you a basic base, a basic, uh, platform from which take the next step.

And that next step is being able to actually ask someone who knows about that if that can be true about you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Ayuso: Right? If you are not making it up. Oh gee, that's terrifying. Even if you feel you are going to talk to somebody who will be, open about it and knowledgeable about it and whatever, well at least for me, the dread about being denied and I was being told, you know, "Nah, that's not you."

Jessica Hornstein: Like somebody telling you, you are crazy for thinking that. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Basically, yeah, basically. I, I mean, I went to this therapist, and they are an amazing person. An amazing person, right? But I was going to them with this question, and I don't think I've ever been as terrified in my life.

At that point, I've had more than 15 years of therapist experience, not with them. Even with all that experience, even with knowing how much that could help putting that thing you are, struggling with. That vulnerability to someone who can tell you, "Are you sure?" Oh, my goodness. Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's interesting because I talk to people a lot right, about, about just finding that truth within, and so it's an interesting question because of course there's, there is a place for experts, and we need that knowledge. But it's an interesting balance to think about, right? I mean, that's looking for validation from them almost. Like somebody giving you permission, like saying, "Yeah, no, it's okay that you are this, that's, that could be right or no, it's not okay." You know? So that's, that's interesting to me—the way that was a piece of your process. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. And, and, and the right professional is the one that would hold all the open space for you to explore it without pointing you to any specific direction, right? 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Absolutely, of course. 

Gabriel Ayuso: And then it takes us the courage to be able to, in that safe space, say, "Well, no. Yes, this is me." 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, what if that person had said to you, "No, you're just imagining that." What would that've done to your, your process and your journey?

Gabriel Ayuso: That would have totally crushed me at that point, because that's a really, really, really vulnerable place to be. And in that place, we need support. We need support and it's okay to need support and it's human and it's, you know, completely legit. So, so it would have completely, crushed me and, well, I'm a stubborn person, so probably I would have got on with, you know, trying to figure out. 

Jessica Hornstein: That, that's why we're friends.

Gabriel Ayuso: Yes. But at the same time, it would've been a huge stumble. It would've been, it would've put me back probably. Well, I, I, I don't, I don't really know. Cause I, yeah, it didn't happen. But, um, but it would've put me back for a while for sure. It would've hurt. So, I cannot even imagine. Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, going back, that was your next step, right? So, you started getting knowledge and learning. Knowledge, learning, learning. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Learning. Mm-hmm. And then asking for support. First from, well in my case personally, uh, it was through forums because, you know, anonymity at the beginning really helps when you're dealing with something that— 

Jessica Hornstein: Online forums. 

Gabriel Ayuso: —really scary. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Online forums. Um, And then, you know, the thing is that every little step, every little, little step gives you one more little piece, a little bit, of, you know, basically of yourself? It's like, you know, you put your little toe in the water, just, you know, okay, this is okay. So, you, you step, you know, like little by little and each little, little step gives you a little bit more confidence.

You know, even each one of them is scary and you each one of those little steps terrifying. But each one of them gives you a little bit more. And then you build from that. So yeah, knowledge and support and, and there comes a point when you have the courage to come out to the, you know, people you love. And I say, have the courage because fear is so that you never have all of it, you know. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's interesting cuz when we had our initial conversation, of course we've had many as you've gone through the process, you didn't seem, from my perspective that afraid to talk to me. You seemed pretty calm on the outside at least. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah, it was just the outside. Yeah.

Jessica Hornstein: How did it feel once the words came out of your mouth? Right, and we're, we're having our conversation was there some relief in that then? 

Gabriel Ayuso: This, this is a bit anti-climatic. How do you spell that? Anti-climatic. Anti-climactic. Um, okay. Here's the thing. On one hand, it's like, "Thank God, I can just say it." Mm. On the other hand, let's be honest here, it also puts on the table the fear of what is going to happen now. Because the truth is that then relationships go through an adjusting period, right?

And it's not like that. I mean, you are putting the other person in a weird space, right? So, there's an adjusting period. It's inevitable. And as much as if we are talking about you, you are the most open-minded and, and, and, and warm person in the world, but yet I'm asking you to change the way you look at me. That's not something that happens, you know, like, "Oh yeah, cool." So, so it goes through an adjustment. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. I was just thinking, I mean, from my perspective, yeah, I was aware of that factor that you're talking about, and I think that's really important to acknowledge, in this situation, that yeah, there's, there are going to be changes, in certain ways. You know, it's not about good or bad. 

Gabriel Ayuso: No. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's just “okay there will be certain things that might be a little different.” Right. And some of them are superficial and some of them are just, well, friends are going to have life changes. Right. I mean, it happens in all sorts of ways. You could have friends, you know, and you, you're both married and you hang out with them, and then when somebody gets divorced and suddenly like, "Oh, how do you relate in that context?" Right? So, I was aware like, okay, we'll find our level in, in how this plays out, but I knew we'd find whatever form that was going to take. But I think it is important to acknowledge for people that, there will be adjustments, but, you know, I think there's, there's a lot of situations. Life is never static. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yes. And the, the good thing, the interesting thing here is that actually there was not even that much to adjust. it turned out into nothing, right. I mean, because there was zero issue. And yet the fear is there, right?

Jessica Hornstein: Sure. Yeah. And understandably so, because unfortunately, there are times where people share something like that, and it's not received in a, in a positive, loving, accepting way. And, you know, that's really painful.

Gabriel Ayuso: Another interesting thing about the experience for me at least, is that I had one really close friend that just couldn't deal with it. Right. It was not exactly rejection, it was more like they couldn't deal with it, and they just, they just, went away or whatever. Interestingly enough, that was less scary. That kind of rejection was less scary than denial, than close people to me saying, "Are you like, are you sure? You're making it up. Or maybe you're confused." Or maybe, I mean, the fear of being denied was bigger than the fear of rejection. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. That makes sense.

Gabriel Ayuso: And I think that's really, really interesting, 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Because then it's, it's forcing you, they're staying in the relationship with you. Right. But only in the version they want. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: And so, it's sort of forcing you, if you want to keep engaged with that relationship, how do you do that? Right. You can't do it as yourself, but you can't also be who they, you know‑ 

Gabriel Ayuso: They are doubting. Yeah. What you know about yourself. Yeah. And that, that's the worst. 

Jessica Hornstein: It hurts.

Gabriel Ayuso: That's the worst when you are kind of trying to come to terms with who you are, whatever that is, and the other person minimizes it cause it's more convenient for them. But the denying of your truth feels way more hurtful than rejection. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a great point. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. And I think it just a good point to get to internalize for us about ourselves. What I mean‑if I deny who I am, I'm hurting myself more than if other people reject me. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Right? Yes. That you need to be able to stand in your, in yourself. Mm-hmm. Stay in that place. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah, and we, we really don't have an idea how much it hurts. And my belief, and this is a belief, so don't write it down, but my belief is that that is what causes our exhaustion and our pain and disease. 

Jessica Hornstein: And, and patterns of choices that keep not working out. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Plus all of that. Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: We're trying to make them from a place that is not, really from our truth. Also, I think a lot of that leads to ways we turn against each other. Our inability to validate ourselves to say, "Nope, this is who I am, I'm good with that." You know, it stops us from being able to do the same for others. And even worse sometimes leads us to tear them down. Right. Invalidate them or worse. Or attack their character or, you know, whatever it is. And, that's part of why, I think these conversations are so important because I think the more we talk about all these things, the, the more we learn to validate ourselves, the more we also will learn how to validate other people and it'll come more naturally.

And, I think it'll have a ripple effect or, you know, a domino effect and, you know, hopefully heal some of, the insanity of what the world is looking like these days. In the ways we all hurt each other. Yeah, you know, there's, there's a lot of pain going around.

Gabriel Ayuso: Also, if we could understand that what we take for granted is not true for everybody. That what I need the most doesn't need to be the thing that you need the most. And that your need is as valuable as mine, even if they are different. That's the other aspect of the same thing.

Jessica Hornstein: Of course. Validation isn't about agreeing. Validating someone's experience, having empathy for them is not about agreeing with them.

It's not even about being able to put yourself in their shoes and, and even understand. Like, I, you know, I know I wouldn't feel that way in that situation. That's okay. You can, you can feel like that. And still, yeah. I know this is real for you. I get it. 

Yeah. We, we gotta, we have to do better. Humans. Humans. We need to do better. Get our shit together now. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. Well, many of us are. 

Jessica Hornstein: Okay, so back to you. I think we're in step two. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It didn't work.

Jessica Hornstein: I think we're in step two here. I think you, there were three, three stages. I think we're in, we're in stage two.

Gabriel Ayuso: Oh yeah. True. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah, it was over a long period of time. It wasn't quite as boom, boom, boom, boom in the experience of it. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Exactly. So, it was the second that we were talking about. The second stage was, is the, you know, the gathering of information and, and, and seek support.

And the third is when those little steps, you know, while gathering information, getting support that allows you to build that platform from which to, you know, kind of peek from there and, and take the most visible steps which are coming out to family and people, and from there, build up your new life.

In my case was like, okay, so this felt right. I mean, every, each, each step, this is the thing. Each step gives you feedback, and that feedback reinforces whatever is the right path. It informs the next step, right? So, so that's where confidence comes from. From taking those little steps and getting the feedback and, so I build that confidence and I build that I won't say certainty because it's never certainty, but, but yeah. Yes. That never exists. Never. But that confidence to be able to build up little by little. Okay. So, the next step you take the next step. Oh yeah. The feedback. I feel like this, I feel like that and learning to read the feeling not so much, what's seen outside, but the feeling if it fits right.

Jessica Hornstein: To really attune to that. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. Of how your body is responding to a certain thing. Mm-hmm. And like, I remember the first time I thought, I don’t need to be a woman, this huge sigh came from the depths of my being like every, all my, my whole body relaxing. Like I could kind of feel my very cells relaxing, like, you know, like this huge weight off my shoulders. Just everywhere. Yeah. Right. So, this is a little bit of the feeling, right? When we come to our truth, it feels relaxing. I mean, even if it’s scary, but in a place inside of us.

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. At your core.

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. It frees something. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. That makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. So, so, that's what, that's what you needed to listen to. Yeah, absolutely. No, you have to be attuned to, to what's going on inside you. And I think, I'm really glad you said that about the steps. 

We'll see how that feels, and then we'll take it from there. And then we'll take it from there. It's just, Okay, let's see. And then, Okay, good. Let's see. No, not good. Adjust. You know, just, following that path.

Gabriel Ayuso: And it's finding it through course correcting, right? Yeah. And, and just feeling it and, and, and finding the way. This has the advantage that it, it doesn't put you in front of a huge wall that you need to scale. Right. Because that would be even more scary, and it is to begin with, I cannot say how many hours of craziness I spent, think I wish, I wish I just knew. Just the clarity and certainty. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hornstein: And that may, I mean, maybe that does happen for some people. Right. I don't want to dismiss that experience either. I think some people do have absolute clarity and they absolutely, you know, maybe absolutely can't speak it, you know, the fear of speaking it or something. So that may take longer, but that it may be clear within them sometimes. You know, so it can happen in all, all shades of gray in between, of how people go through a process.

Gabriel Ayuso: At the same time, when we're talking about invalidation, we have that so ingrained, and the doubt comes from within. And the biggest doubt comes in the way of not really knowing what we want or not really knowing ourselves. And that's huge. And I believe that an epidemic. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, and, and I think even when you do know or some part of you knows that there's so many things that stop you from acknowledging it or going after it. There's, you know, “I won't get it anyway, or, I don't have a right to want that.” 

Gabriel Ayuso: I think it's always there and as it is always there on some level, we always know. 

Jessica Hornstein: What we want. Yeah. Or, or who we are. We are what we need. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Whatever, what we need, who we are, what we know, and yet it's like we don't have access to that knowing because all of the invalidation and all of the things that are in between and conditioning.

Jessica Hornstein: It's like layers and layers. It's coats and hats and gloves. It's shrouded in all these layers. 

Gabriel Ayuso: So, so in rebuilding up who you are, those little steps they take you so far. Way faster than any other way. At least for me they did. I really do have examples, concrete examples about this. I have a friend, right, and they're amazing and lovely, but they need the certainty and the full picture, so clear that they are completely stuck from even before I began.

And they are stuck in more or less the same place because they need the picture so clear that it's impossible to move from that place because it's like if I don't see it completely clearly, and if I don't know completely, and if I'm not there already yet, then I don't move. Well, I'm here, just little step by little step. I tell you is a wonderful place to be. 

Jessica Hornstein: And that makes me so happy that you're there. We are all faced with all these messages and, you know, we have different levels, we have different kinds of families, we have different environments so sure there's different degrees of invalidation we've experienced and support we've experienced. But some people are able to recognize it or come to this place of embodying who they really are, in whatever, whatever the context is. And some people, struggle for a lifetime, right, and never really get there. I'm so interested in what, you know, what that secret ingredient is that some of us can overcome that and, and get to that place when others can't. And it's not about the life experience you've had because plenty of people have had incredible trauma and they overcome.

And some people have had less, at least overtly recognizable, difficult experiences can't. So, I'm, I'm so interested in trying to get to that. So, I always ask, what do you think it was in you that enabled you to, engage this, this question? The biggest question, of, of "who am I really?" and, and become that? It's always a process. We're still, we're always becoming. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah, it's a good point. 

Jessica Hornstein:  But, you know, it's really, you're in a place where you're, you are in your truth. You're, you're living your, your truest self now. 

Gabriel Ayuso: What I believe, and, we wouldn't ever know really, right, because probably there's so many ingredients to it that we will never know. But what I believe is that it is about the ability to deal with fear. 

And we could talk what we said before right? About, you know, getting information and support or whatever. But further from that, my belief is I had had a long lifetime to learn how to deal with fear and, and to take those steps whether I was terrified or, or not. I mean, there's the fear and then there's the fear of fear. Fear. We all have it, right? So, we all have fear, but if we let ourselves fear the fear then we won't ever move.

And I think that's a difference. If we believe that the fear and the, and threat is true, then we won't move. If we know that yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's there. And we take it by the hand, and we walk alongside it, then— 

Jessica Hornstein: Maybe we swear it a little—

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, uncertainty is awful because that fear and that doubt—which are completely linked, right—doubt and fear go hand by hand. I mean the fear sows doubt and that doubt sows fear and, you know, like 

Jessica Hornstein:  A vicious cycle. Mm-hmm. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's a vicious cycle. But both of them are, are born from uncertainty from not knowing. So that expectation of certainty kills everything. everything. 

Jessica Hornstein: That may be the answer to, to what my next question was going to be. If you were going to suggest one thing to anyone who is at, the beginning of a process of discovering who they really are or, or maybe, in the midst of it even, what you think the most important step would be?

Gabriel Ayuso: Well, first understanding the nature of uncertainty again. it's normal that you're not sure it's normal, that you don't know. Just try it out. just it out. Just try it out. See what happens. Take a little step. Yeah. Try that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Makes a lot of sense. Okay. And two quick last, quick questions. What is your least favorite invalidating phrase? Because part of what we wanna do is learn, how we can mitigate invalidation around us.

And I think part of that is being aware of, what we hear and what we say to others. So, I want to collect everybody's phrases that, we, we have to be conscious of that we may say to other people, and the impact it has on them. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Okay. Okay, mine is not very original at all. And yet it just sort of hurts so much. It still does so much. And it's your skin is too thin or you're too sensitive. 

Jessica Hornstein: You're too sensitive. Yeah. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Even now, even after going through everything, this still hurts the most. 

Jessica Hornstein: You're not alone in that feeling. Yeah. That one smoke coming outta your ears. Yep. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I'm with you there. Okay. And then to end on a positive note, and what we can do to make everybody's experiences better—what is your most favorite validating phrase? 

Gabriel Ayuso: Okay. Here's the thing. For me, the most validating experience I've had wasn't through a phrase. It was through a non-issue whatsoever. 

Jessica Hornstein: A non-issue. 

Gabriel Ayuso: A non-issue whatsoever. An immediate adaptation of whatever it is. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, so it may be like, “Okay, got it. I understand we're good.” 

Gabriel Ayuso: So, for example, Okay, so how are you feeling about it then? The immediate feedback of understanding that, integrating it as a non-issue. And then answer according to that being integrated. I dunno if I make sense. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, I think, I'll try to see if this is what you're saying. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. Um, that there's acceptance, right? You put something out there, there's acceptance. There's a feeling of being seen and heard. And a feeling of somebody then also being curious and wanting to know more.

I see you. I hear you. I accept you. And tell me more. 

Gabriel Ayuso: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: Close enough. Close. 

Gabriel Ayuso: So no, absolutely. No, that's 100%. Let's put an example. When I came out to my boss, he said, "Well, okay, what do you need?" And I said, "Well, it would be lovely to have my email changed to, you know, it would be lovely to, if everybody at the office could use my name, Gabriel, and if I could have the, the, the email changed with my name, that would be great."

I had that that afternoon. That same afternoon I had that. That's what I mean, you know, like " Yup. Okay. No issue whatsoever. That's what you need. That's what you get." Yes. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. I remember how poignant that was for you, that experience.

Gabriel Ayuso:  It was like, yeah, okay. 

Jessica Hornstein:  Well, it not only, has been an honor to have you here to talk with me today, and I'm so grateful for that. But I'm, I'm, you know, infinitely grateful for our friendship and it's also really been, an honor I feel to witness this process and I know it was hard, but it was beautiful to see. 

Gabriel Ayuso:  Well, we we're still, we're still there, right? I mean, you're gonna hear me complain still for a while. 

Jessica Hornstein:  Yeah, well vice-versa. So, you know, um, but yeah. Yeah. But it, it really, it's been, you know, it really has been my honor to bear witness to it. And I just admire you so much. I know how much you went through and, appreciate the ways, you shared with me. And the trust you showed in sharing with me. 

Gabriel Ayuso: It's always been invaluable to have you by my side. What can I say, likewise.

Jessica Hornstein: So, thank you so much for this conversation. I really think it, it will help so many people, in all different situations, but your experience is certainly important to bring light to.

Gabriel Ayuso: Thank you for always listening. 

Jessica Hornstein: Anytime. Anytime. Take care, everyone.

Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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