Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Bre Clark

• Explore how imposter syndrome manifests in both our personal and professional lives. 
• Understand the relationship between imposter syndrome and anxiety and depression. 
• Find out what tools will help you challenge your false beliefs about yourself. 
• Why imposter syndrome affects creatives and entrepreneurs in very specific ways. 
• Understand the possible internal and external causes of imposter syndrome. 

Bre Clark is a seasoned multimedia journalist and news personality. In 2013, she earned the distinction of becoming the first African American news anchor in the state of Idaho. She has been focused throughout her career on helping others share their stories while holding officials accountable. With a decade of experience in broadcast news and public relations, she now hosts the show The Real Deal with Bre Clark. Over the years, Bre has interviewed countless politicians, experts, celebrities, social media influencers, and everyday people, in that process she discovered that what most were searching for was authenticity. 

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*Music by Sam Murphy*
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Transcript

Jessica Hornstein: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes, feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually, there is something fundamentally right. So join me and together, we can all feel a little less crazy. 

Hi, everybody. I am here today with Bre Clark and we are going to talk about imposter syndrome. Bre, welcome.

Bre Clark: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Jessica. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thanks for being here. So, I'm gonna read your bio and then we'll, we'll jump right in. Bre Clark is a seasoned multimedia journalist and news personality.

In 2013, she earned the distinction of becoming the first African American news anchor in the state of Idaho. She has been focused throughout her career on helping others share their stories, while holding officials accountable. With a decade of experience in broadcast news and public relations,

She now hosts the show, The Real Deal with Bre Clark. Over the years, Bre has interviewed countless politicians, experts, celebrities, social media influencers, and everyday people. And in that process, she discovered that what most people were searching for was authenticity. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.

Sounds really interesting. You know, you've covered quite, quite a scope there. 

Bre Clark: Yeah. It, it's funny when, when you read that, it's just like, is that me? 

Jessica Hornstein: So that's your imposter syndrome kicking in? That, that couldn't be me. Right? 

Bre Clark: Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So how, yeah. How did you, how did that become something that you focused so much on and that really pulled you in?

Bre Clark: Yeah. Well, I heard about imposter syndrome years and years ago. I was, I was helping a woman. She owned a Fortune 500 company here and she's really into getting young girls into STEM and helping them stick with it throughout high school. She found that in high school a lot of them are told that they aren't, you know, they should probably try something else. Girls just aren't good at math or girls just aren't good at science. You know, those types of things. And, I was interviewing someone for her book and, they brought up imposter syndrome and I had never heard the term. I didn't know what it was and at that moment I didn't dive deep into it. It wasn't until later, that I started advancing in my career as a journalist, that I started having some of these feelings of inadequacy, you know, uh, even though I'd gone to school, even though I was very good at my job, I still felt the need to prove myself.

And I saw everyone around me still also feeling that way, you know, everybody wanting to prove themselves. Everybody, you know, putting in long hours and, taking low pay and, and, just not being treated very well in some cases that wasn't at every, you know, job that I went to, but it, but in some cases, just not feeling like they weren't enough, you know?

And so, I started, you know, thinking, you know, I wonder if we're, we're all just kind of suffering from a little bit of imposter syndrome. And when I was approached to do my own talk show, the main thing that kept going through my head is, who am I to have a talk show, I have nothing to talk about. There are so many other people qualified. I'm not Oprah, you know, that those were the things that, that kept coming up. And I thought, you know, if I do do a talk show, it's going to be about imposter syndrome. It's gonna dive into some of those things that we're thinking about. You know, why is it that I don't feel like I'm good enough?

Why is it that, I have every, you know, degree and, and certificate and qualification, but I still feel unqualified? Those are some of the things I really wanted to dive deeper into and give a voice to. Cuz I think when people hear it, they kind of understand, but it's something different when you hear somebody explaining exactly what's going through your head every day.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Yes. And I agree with you. It is really pervasive, as you say through, you know, even throughout people who are extremely accomplished. So, it doesn't seem to have to do, right, with accomplishment. It's not accomplishment that erases that. Or, or unwinds that for us because then a lot of people wouldn't have it who do. So what did, like in your, in your exploration of this, did you find, you know, that was something within you, first of all, like personally that caused this, and did you find a thread sort of, that wound through all the people that you've spoken with, on this topic and, you know, why it, it is so common?

Bre Clark: So, the first thing I found is that there, there aren't a lot, there's not a lot of research out there. The last major study was done back in the seventies when the term was coined. Yeah, and so there have been little, small surveys here and there since then, but there still haven't been any groundbreaking research, to find out why people suffer from imposter syndrome and how to overcome it. 

But there have been people who have come up with, you know, tools and courses and things like that that have helped. Valerie Young has been the person who's kind of spearheaded, uh, that initiative to kind of help women with imposter syndrome. But surely there can be a lot more done. And so, as I, you know, was doing research and trying to find out, you know, why, you know, why do people feel this way? What's going on? I found that a lot of it seems to be geared toward internal aspects. You know, your childhood, you know, what kind of, you know, trauma did you go through or, or what were you told when you were growing up? Did you have, uh, things later, you know, in adulthood that, you know, confirmed some of those things you were told when you were a child?

But I didn't see many things talking about the external factors that hit people who suffer from imposter syndrome. You know, if, if you're, you've been educated your whole life and then you go to a job and you're treated like you don't know anything. Mm-hmm. Well, of course you're gonna suffer from imposter syndrome if you, you know, go to a job that was not created for you.

You know, or you're in a culture and you're a minority and you are, you know, going through life and you're constantly told, “Hey, for you to stand out for you, for people to recognize that you are intelligent, you're gonna have to do more. Way more than it's required, you know, to, to show people that you know, you know what you're doing and you know what you're talking about, right?”

And so, no one was really talking about these other aspects of it. No one was talking about social media, you know, and how that impacted and all of those things I have experienced, in some form of fashion. You know, growing up, my parents are older. They had very high standards and they had to because of who they were, in a country that, you know, didn't wanna accept who they were.

And so, they did their best to prepare me to do better. But that meant a lot of striving, you know, a lot of striving, and a lot of, A lot of pushing back a lot of cultural things, uh, ignoring, you know, things about my culture and, and, and, you know, trying to, to reshape who I was over and over again, throughout childhood and adolescence. That is really hurtful when you become an adult. Then going through schools where a lot of times I was the only black, having to, to find out how not to just stand out as the black girl, but to also have people, respect that I knew what I was talking about, that, that I was a good student, that I wasn't a troublemaker, those types of things.

And then trying to break into journalism, uh, and a lot of these communities where they had never had an African American. A lot of them wanted me on air, but only for a short period of time. You know? We want you there, but we don't want you over there. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Kind of tokenism.

Bre Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what kinda messages those send as well. So, navigating all of that, most of, all of that, steered back to imposter syndrome and me internalizing a lot of those messages that I was getting and then seeing a lot of the people around me who were a part of the culture who did have these systems that were built for them, but still they felt inadequate.

It made me very interested in what is it about this phenomenon, that, that latches onto people. and that just kind of sparked my interest. And, and hearing the research and finding, and just talking to people and saying like, you know “what, why do you think you feel this way?” and having people be, be very honest, you know, which that's the biggest part is if you admit that you suffer from imposter syndrome, what does that say about you? You know, that's like the biggest question for people who suffer from the phenomenon. If I admit that I'm suffering from imposter syndrome, how many people are gonna come and say, “You're right. You aren't qualified and I don't, I don't know why you think you're suffering from something, you just aren't qualified.” You know, that's the fear, that people are carrying. And so as a journalist who is tasked with bringing people information with, with being, you know, an expert in so many different fields to say, I suffer from imposter syndrome, that could be a big blow, you know, to your career. And so, I just took a leap and said, you know what? I, I'm gonna talk about it. And we'll see what happens. So, here we are. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting. because you know, here at, No, Not Crazy, we talk about validation and invalidation. Right? And, and how, it connects to so many different parts of our lives. And what I'm hearing, hearing you say is, I mean, everything you're speaking to is really a form of invalidation, you know, and it can be systemic and institutional and all, you know, or just interpersonal. Right? And so it sounds like, you had several of those factors that you're working with, but, you know, I, I think everybody has experienced some of it, at least, maybe, you know, they're invalidated in some way where they have to suppress some part of themselves, or they're told that some part of themselves isn't, worthy, you know, and I would suspect that that is a big contribution, at least one piece of what contributes to imposter syndrome from what, from what you're saying. And I also wanted to go back though, for one thing that you said, cuz you said something about women. Looking at women, do you find that it's more common in women than in men? 

Bre Clark: Oh, yes. and people have tried to do studies to show that, you know, men suffer from imposter syndrome. But it doesn't impact them as harshly. A man who suffers from imposter syndrome will more than likely just surround himself with people that he feels are less adequate than he is, you know, to deal with that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Interesting. 

Bre Clark: Or, yeah. Or he'll, you know, he's not gonna stay at the office until five o'clock in the morning trying to prove his worth but a woman with imposter syndrome, she will. She will sacrifice a whole lot more than, than a man will just because they, they just don't suffer from it the same way. It doesn't impact them the same way and they don't internalize it. You know, a man who's suffering from imposter syndrome, it's "they don't see my worth."

A woman who's, uh, suffering from imposter syndrome. It's "I am not worthy." Right. That, that's the big difference between the two. And so, I think that is, that is the biggest thing because when you're suffering from imposter syndrome and you are internalizing all of those things, especially for women, it leads to depression, it leads to anxiety, it leads to some of these other things that can, that can be very detrimental to your health, both mentally and physically.

And with men, that's not necessarily the case just because it's not internalized. And so while, uh, they're walking around and they may feel like, "Oh man, I wish someone could see my worth." It does not impact them as, as, as greatly as it does women. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, so maybe being from a sort of historically marginalized group, whether it's, you know, gender or race or, you know, any, any of the things, maybe that makes you internalize those messages more. Yeah. Sounds like it’s a theory anyway. One of your theories. Since we don't have the research, but that sounds, sounds like what you're saying, I think. So how does it manifest, like, so you mentioned, you know, maybe somebody stays till five in the morning, you know, trying to do double the work that everybody else is doing to prove themselves.

What other ways do you see it playing out in people's lives you know, work lives or personal lives that, you know, is messing, messing us up?

Bre Clark: It's usually somewhere where there's a lack of confidence or a lack, lack of self-worth that goes unhinged, you know? And so, for a lot of people that starts in childhood and slowly becomes bigger, especially once they get to college.

College is the biggest place where you see, that's the biggest peer group where you see imposter syndrome run rampant because for the first time you're on your own, you're trying to navigate life. Most people are on their own and trying to navigate life. And you are met with this pressure to perform because guess what? You gotta make a living. You gotta live your life. You gotta, you know, do the things. And so, uh, for a lot of people it starts there, but for creatives and entrepreneurs, it could start later in life. And so that's what a lot of people are seeing, especially now when a lot of people are, are leaving the marketplace and they're deciding to start their own businesses, they're taking, you know, chances on themselves.

Being an entrepreneur and being a creative, a lot of what you're dealing with is subjective, right. If you put your product out during the wrong time, it doesn't mean that it's a crappy product, it just means that people decided they didn't like it at that point. But you can obviously internalize that and say, "oh, I suck at this. I should have never quit my job. What is wrong with me? I, I couldn't make it in the marketplace. I couldn't make it doing this." And, and all of a sudden, you find yourself not only doubting yourself, but feeling like you're inadequate, unworthy, and that there's no possible way that, that you can do anything.

And so you start this, fake it till you make it mentality, maybe I'm just gonna, you know, try and do my best and see what happens and you start to believe that any success you have after that is because you pretended to be something that you're not. that's what you're seeing with a, a lot of entrepreneurs. With creatives because it's so subjective and because it, it takes so much mental gymnastics to do what you do already, The smallest bit of, of criticism can send you on that imposter syndrome spiral of, "They didn't like this, it's not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not a creative, then who am I?" and those are just kind of a very surface level, you know, basis of what happens when, when these groups are suffering from imposter syndrome or where they can manifest.

But for a majority of people it happens during childhood or, or during, you know, that time where you're transitioning into adulthood and you're having some of, you know, those societal factors confirm some of those things that you heard growing up. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. It's interesting. I wonder if there's some connection, you know, cause you mentioned entrepreneurs and creatives and those are jobs typically where the work is really an expression of who you are. Mm-hmm. Maybe more than other jobs. Maybe more than like, if you're an accountant where it may not feel as personal in certain ways from, from like deep down in your soul kind of thing, you know? I wonder if you're more vulnerable to internalizing that when, when it's coming from that place than other work. Not that other people don't care about their work, but you know what I mean? It's, it's just coming from a different place maybe. So, I wonder. That would be interesting if somebody wants to do that study, that would be interesting.

Bre Clark: Well, it's also isolating and Valerie's book, she talks about how those two groups, it's very isolating.You know, you don't, you don't have that support system that you might find in a healthy workplace. We're talking about healthy workplaces, healthy, right, where you might find that support system. You know, you're not doing all the social media by yourself. You have someone who's helping you with, with that. You know, you're having people double-check or you're just surrounded, you know, by people who, who are encouraging you, who can be objective and point out the facts. You did create this. You did very well on this. These are the numbers to show that you just launched at the wrong time. You know, you have people around you that can point out the facts, but when you're isolated and you're doing a lot of this stuff on your own, you're exhausted, you're tired. It's very hard for you to separate those two because you're already doing everything else. The last thing that your brain is gonna allow you to do is be, you know, objective about the situation. And so, I do believe that's why these groups suffer more than others. It’s because you're exhausted.

You're tired. You don't have the capacity to, to point out the facts and not internalize what you might perceive to be as failure.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So, the workplace could really work for you, like a structured workplace where you're in a company or you know, you have coworkers and a boss and all of that. It could really work for you or against you because in, in the wrong environment, in a, you know, in a toxic environment—and actually the last episode I did was about this, basically about having, how bosses can validate their, their employees or not, you know, and what happens when they don't, and that sort of thing and how damaging that is. So yeah, it could really, either work against you and, and increase your sense of imposter syndrome, right, if you, you're not getting that at work, or as you say, if it's a healthy workplace, then it's really positive and can make all the difference where you feel supported and you know, what's working and what isn't.

Bre Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Well, unhealthy workplaces, that's a whole other thing. Lisa Orbe Austin, in her book, uh, your Unstoppable Greatness, she talks about, uh, a lot about burnout and unhealthy workplaces and how that can foster imposter syndrome and, and about how in the workplace, there's usually three types of people. There are people who are well-rounded. They understand, you know, how the dynamics work. They don't take anything home with them. They leave everything there. They have a great work-life balance. 

It's those people, you have those who feel, uh, like imposters, that are working really hard to try and prove themselves or striving, or they're procrastinating to the point where they don't get as much done. Their work is their worth and their work is not seen because they're self-sabotaging themselves. Right. 

You have that group of people and then you have the narcissist and she says the worst thing for someone who's suffering from imposter syndrome, the worst thing for them is for them to get attached to a narcissist. And you'll see a lot of this when, when you have bosses, you'll have bosses that are narcissists that will latch on to someone who's suffering from imposter syndrome. They don't know this. They just know that, that this person has the key factors to do whatever it is that they want. And when you get attached to someone like that, you are usually asked to do more, not more that you're capable of, but more than you should to prove your worth to, to them.

And it creates this, this crazy cycle because your lack of self-worth fuels that narcissist and their, you know, whatever it is that they did not receive or, or get growing up. And so, the workplace is, is probably the, the, uh, unhealthy workplace is probably the best place for imposter syndrome to foster from someone who's, and it doesn't have to be a boss, but most of the time that's where you see it, is where you have a boss who's a narcissist, who has an employee or, or secondhand who, uh, is suffering from something that can easily manifest into an imposter syndrome because of the dynamics of that relationship.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. They really, the boss exploits it. Yeah. Really exploits that, that vulnerability. Yeah. Where does the pathway go? Unchecked. You know, so if somebody has imposter syndrome, where does it lead when it's unchecked, if it's not addressed?

Bre Clark: Yeah. It can lead to a lot of things. It can lead to severe anxiety, to, to the point to where you, you just aren't functioning. You know, you, you aren't functioning in health in any way. And that can lead to severe burnout, not just in your work life, but in your personal life as well. With imposter syndrome, people often talk about the corporate world and corporate America, and with the, the show we've tried to open up some of those, other avenues where you can see it.

For the stay-at-home mom who's suffering from imposter syndrome, who is anxious about all the things because she wants to be the best mom that she can. Whatever happened that made her feel that way can obviously lead to burnout. It can, it can look at like something as simple as, cleaning the house every day to where it's, you know, it's completely spotless while trying to be the super, you know, superwoman mom and do all the things, and do all the play dates and overcommit.

Uh, that can obviously lead, lead to burnout. And that can take you to the point where you, you just can't function. Mm-hmm. Uh, that can lead to a lot of health risks, that could, that could lead, you know, that could lead to a lot of agitation, a lot of anger, and, and just self-destruction there. Another avenue is imposter syndrome unhinged can lead to severe depression.

If you feel like nothing that you ever do measures up, and even when you're accomplishing things, and that high doesn't last very long, it could get to the point where nothing feels like it's worth it. You know, nothing feels like it's gonna bring you joy or make you happy. That could lead to deep depression.

And we know that deep depression can lead to suicide and, and they have found that. The other thing is imposter syndrome can lead to, to, uh, self-sabotage where you feel like you are, you're not going to succeed for, for whatever reason. And so instead of failing, you start failing for yourself.

Meaning you just start ruining relationships. You start ruining jobs. You start just ruining every pathway that you can. And for some people that could lead to addiction, where you're finding, coping mechanisms, you know, what you think is coping mechanisms, but it's actually self-sabotage, you know. If I'm strung out, then I'll never really have to try and no one will ever see that I'm awful at this. You know, those types of things. And for people who don't suffer from imposter syndrome, that might not make the most sense. And like, how do we get there? Like how do we go from there to here? But because this is something that is so internal that you cannot see, you know, you cannot see if someone is going through imposter syndrome unless you've dealt with it in some way, because it's so silent, the impacts are very drastic because you're dealing with it in silence for so long.

And so that's why we tell people on the show and, and anytime we're dealing with these communities, that it's very important for you to be in community, for you to tell someone if it's just one person that's better than you walking around and holding all of that in because it's so toxic that these are just three things that it could lead to, but there's so much more destruction that can happen from this. 

Jessica Hornstein: I see, you know, with the clients I work with, self-worth, self-concept is, is such a struggle, it's coming from so many angles it's, you know, really erodes who you are and your ability to move through the world in, in an authentic way or in a, in an empowered way. And it's just brutal. And I, I really appreciate that you mentioned stay-at-home moms or, or self-sabotaging in relationships because I think it's important to understand that it isn't just, you know, in the work. We do think of it, like imposter syndrome has to do with your work and some status kind of thing in that way.

But I do think it really, like you said, you know, it plays out in, in our interpersonal lives so much, and, and relationally, people think they're not worthy of relationships, certain kinds of relationships, and so they, you know, they don't try like you said, and, and when you don't try, you, you can't get upset with yourself for failing, right?

Like then it's like, oh, well it's not that I couldn't do it, I just didn't try to do it. So like, maybe had I, you know, tried to write that book or whatever it is, I, I would have, but you don't sort of have to really digest the failure cuz you haven't, you haven't attempted it, right? 

Bre Clark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the, the biggest things is just finding that person, I, I can't stress that enough because imposter syndrome is so much more complicated than, than we make it but at the same time, to overcome it is so simple, you know? There are three things that I tell people to do when they're suffering from this.

It's, it's write down all those thoughts, everything that you are keeping inside, write it down. And there is going to be a hesitation to continue that list halfway through that list. I guarantee you, you are not going to wanna continue writing it down because your, your brain doesn't want you to let go of that, you know? There's a part of you that doesn't wanna let go of that. I know they just like me and I can, if I continue to just kind of play their game and let them just like me, then I won't ever have to confess.

They'll never realize that I don't know what I'm doing. Well, that's not the case. Google did not hire you because they liked you. Like, that's, that is a, Google actually has a whole onboarding section for their onboarding with HR that addresses imposter syndrome. Because they found a lot of people who are joining their company for some reason think that through that two-month process of being vetted, they were able to just convince Google that they were qualified when they weren't. And I'm like, if you feel that you can convince Google, uh, to hire you just because you know they made a mistake or, or they just like you, that that's deep. That, that is a deep-seated situation. But I tell people to just write those things down. You know, write, you know, write down.

“I feel like I tricked Google into hiring me.” You know, write all those things down. And then I want you to go through and just try and investigate the facts, investigate those facts. Let's say you are wrong, right? And Google hired you because you're actually qualified. What would those qualifications be?

Right. Write those down. Write down the things that you've heard people say about you that makes you feel uncomfortable. Those are usually the facts. It's, “oh my gosh, you are natural at this.” You probably are. You know, write those things down. And then I tell people not to stop there. I tell them to go and share it with some of the, someone that they trust, a friend, or someone who has a lot of weight in their life, usually an older, wiser person, and just tell them, “Hey, I wrote this down. I've been suffering from this.” And at that moment, give them permission to speak the truth into whatever that situation is and to meet with you on a periodic basis.

That could be every week. That could be once a month, but to check in with you, and that you are obligated. You know, to answer them to, to go through this process with them, because that is the hardest thing is, is going through that whole process, writing it down, writing it on the opposite, and then the imposter phenomenon.

Having you flip it back the other direction, you go back into the lie or you make a deeper lie. It's like, “oh, I was, you know, I do have a degree. Oh, but I faked my way through college.” You know, it, it's so simple to go back and, and just in invalidate, you know, those things, but I guarantee you that, that that's not the case.

It's just not. So yeah, so I just, this is why I say community is important and these, these three steps are the simplest way to unravel such a complicated mind game. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So many layers that you, you lose sight of who you really are even. I think it's twofold. Like, I think on the one hand you've lost sight because your self-doubt about your qualifications or your abilities, and on the other hand, you're losing yourself because from that place, you can't really self-actualize, right, into what you really want, who you really can be, because you're, you're just focused on trying to be the thing you think you need to be or everybody's expecting you to be or wants you to be. And so, so it's such a loss of self, coming from two tracks. 

Bre Clark: Yeah. We talk a lot about identity on the show as well, having your identity rooted, why having your identity rooted in what you do is so, uh, harmful, I know for me that it was especially true. I mean, as journalists, we live, breathe, and sleep what we do. It's very hard to, uh, separate the two because even when you're at the grocery store, you're still that person. Have people come up to you and say, “oh my gosh, hi.” You know? And you can't be mean. You can't say, I mean, you could, but most of the time I know you would never. You can’t say, I'm grocery shopping, leave me alone and it becomes every facet. I mean, there were times where I'd be sitting eating dinner with my family and people would come up and mid-conversation, no, excuse me, no, nothing.

And I didn't take it any kinda way, cuz I knew they were just excited, but I remember it would make me feel uncomfortable, I would think these people don't know me and they're, they're being so nice. They have no idea who I am, you know? I'm a nice person, but I'm a little spicy and so when they would come up, they're like, “oh, you're so nice and so sweet.”

I'm like, ask my husband. He's gonna tell you something different. But it became the point where I felt like that's what I had to embody. I had to embody this nice, sweet person at all times. And I still catch myself doing that. And people who know me in real life have told me, I mean, you see more of me on my show, but that's, that's different than what you saw when I did the news.

When, when I did the news, I, I felt like I had to be what the audience felt that I was and that wasn't always the best thing for me. Uh, cuz you get lost in that. And I remember when I had my son, for three years, I was a stay-at-home mom and I did not know who I was without being on television.

I didn't know who Bre Clark was. And it was very odd going to the store here in Austin, Texas and no one knowing who I was. You know, it felt odd. And I remember starting to grieve that because it's like, well, if I'm not Bre Clark, who am I? You know? Am I important? Was that really real? You know, those types of things.

And it's, it's very hard to, to go backwards and do that work, which I had to do of figuring out who am I, what do I actually like to do, what my hobbies were, because I didn't have any hobbies anymore. I mean, you're, you're always at the station. And so, there were a lot of things that I knew how to do that I did not know I knew how to do, you know, or skills that I had acquired, becoming a journalist that could, you know, work at any other job. I felt like if I wasn't doing tv, I couldn't do anything else because that's all I could do. And I found out two years later that that wasn't true. You know, when I started doing other type of consulting work, I was like, "Oh, okay. Like, I'm an actually smart person. I'm not just TV smart." Quote unquote. And so, those are some of the things that I think that, you know, people are just dealing with is, is their identity is attached to whatever that is. You know, not just with work, but if your identity is wrapped up in being a mom, you might forget, you know, the things that you would do when you, it was just you and your husband, or just you as a single person and, and you hanging out with your friends.

You might forget that you love to draw. You might forget that you like to take, you know, long, you know, walks on the beach. You might forget those things. It's crazy cuz it's like, how could you ever forget those things? But when your identity gets wrapped up in this other role, role, your brain erases everything else because it's like, I don't need this. I'm having to keep track of three other people. I, I don't have space for, for what you as a, as a person, used to like to do and so I, I think it's important for people to, if they're finding themselves feeling like an imposter inadequate to maybe just make a list. What are you good at? Or what do you just like, you know, not even, what are you, you're good at? What do you like to do? And if you can't come up with a list, your identity is no longer it, it's no longer sovereign. You do, you no longer have a sovereign identity. It's attached to something, and you need to do detach yourself from that as soon as possible.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. I work with people on that, you know, that rebuilding, and sometimes you do really have to go way back. Yeah. You know, even to childhood to sort of remember that, that core of who you, who you are. and that, that freedom that you had and just sort of putting yourself out there.

Here's who I am, and it's just organic and naturally happens. You don't think about it, you're not picking and choosing. You're just doing it like what feels right to you when you're a kid. And yeah, it can really be a, a process of rebuilding. It can really get so lost. So how did you, or do you feel, I should say, cuz, you know, when I read your bio, you said, “That’s me? What?” so I mean, do you feel like you have overcome imposter syndrome?

Do you feel like people ever do fully overcome imposter syndrome or is it something that's sort of there, because I think so many of our wounds or, you know, our challenges, it's not about getting rid of them. You know, we may still always have the, the triggers we have. It's about, it's about managing them and navigating them and the, the self-awareness, right? And giving yourself self-compassion around them. So, you know, catching yourself when something starts, that feeling starts instead of going down the rabbit hole with it, Saying, “Ph, I'm doing that thing again. Okay, hold on. what am I reacting to?” Right? And being able to then to process it. So, you know, I wonder if this is one of those things that there's always like a little piece of it there.

Bre Clark:, I do believe there, there's always gonna be. I don't, I could be wrong, but I don't feel like you ever fully overcome anything. Uh, I mean, if you get a cut today, there's gonna be some remnants of a scar. Even if you don't see it on top of your skin, there's gonna be some type of scar tissue under the surface. It's, that's just how we work. And it's the same things with our, our mental and our emotional. You just, you don't fully overcome whatever it is that has hurt you or impacted you. I do believe that I'm a lot better. This show has been probably the biggest healing point for me, just because it's, I do not have a station backing me. There's no major network that is backing my show. A lot of this is, is me, not to take anything away from my team, but, you know, it's not, It is not something that someone said, "Hey, this is what you're gonna do and this is who you are." A lot of the decisions are now left to me and that has been the most liberating thing cuz I can do whatever I want, you know, with it. You know, if I decide we're gonna start talking about ponies next season, that's what we're gonna do. No one would watch, you know, 

Jessica Hornstein: I’d watch.

Bre Clark: I'm writing that down.

Jessica Hornstein: This one’s for Jessica.

Bre Clark: But, uh, It, it's, I am finally doing what I want, and I am noticing that people notice, you know, I get messages every other day from people who are like, oh, you, you seem so much happier, doing this. That does not mean that I don't have hard days. That does not mean that there are days that I'm like, what am I doing? You know, I have those days, and it is normal to have those days. And I feel like with a lot of people, not just with imposter syndrome, but depression and anxiety and addiction, any of those things, they feel like if they aren't at a hundred percent, happy and free, uh, that they aren't healing or healed.

And that's not necessarily true. I, I have noticed that I, that I don't take things as personally, I noticed that I care less about what, what people are thinking and that just might be maturity more than anything else but the more that I talk about this and the more that I share, "hey, yep, me too. I'm dealing with some stuff," it helps. It helps redeem a lot of things that I let slide or a lot of things that I didn't say when I felt like I needed to say. And I feel like, uh, a lot of those wounds that were self-inflicted are being healed as well. So, I do believe that there is a way to heal from this, but it's not going to be a hundred percent, right. And I think that there's beauty in that because if you still feel a little bit and, you know, “Hey, this is what I have overcome,” you're gonna fight harder not to go back, uh, to where that was. If, if you remember, you know with childbirth, I have the scars, you know, and so sometime I'm like, do we want another, you know, you forget the whole process.

My husband says it's a, it's a trick nature tricks us and, makes us moms forget, you know, the, the pregnancy, the labor and all that. And so we're like, oh yeah, maybe we can have another so that we will, you know, keep the population going, but, but I, I feel like when you remember, that there was some stuff that you had to go through to get to where you are, not only are you able to acknowledge how far you're, you've come, but you're able to continue on that path. Your whole life you're gonna be working through some stuff because things happen, right? Once you heal from that one thing, something else. Yes. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes. Something else. Yeah. No. And things get retriggered depending on what's going on and, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really important to make the point because we can get so paralyzed, right, in this in these fears, you know, imposter syndrome or any, any fear or anxiety And that really then robs us that, you know, it compounds the problem because it robs us of having the opportunity to see evidence to the contrary. Right? So, if we say we can't, or we're afraid to try, you know, and whether that's a job or relationship, whatever it is, we're really losing out on those, like you said, you know, when you started doing the show, right, it starts giving you feedback that you then start to internalize that it gives you some data, right? Like about, "oh wait, I am doing this, I can do this, and this is working and maybe this part isn't working so well, and I adjust it.” But right it starts giving you those ingredients to build a new self-concept. Or, or at least an, an enhanced self-concept that knows what you're capable of, you know, and yeah, tips the scales away from that imposter syndrome. It's so important because the, when we're in those states is when we may most want to retreat and not, try not put ourselves out there. But that's, we actually need to, and it can be little steps, right? If you know, if you're afraid— 

Bre Clark: It doesn't have to be a whole show. 

Jessica Hornstein: Doesn't have to be a whole, I mean, you're amazing, but no, it can really, yeah, it can really be little, tiny steps. But at each step you're rewiring or you're rewriting that narrative about yourself. That you see you can do it. So, it’s at those moments where we have to kind of push ourselves a little bit more, I think, to, to try to take those tiny little steps and as you say, you know, it's important also to usually do that with some support, whether that's a friend, a mentor, or a parent, a coach, whomever.

Bre Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And to give yourself permission. I mean, you’re allowed to say what kind of life you want and who you want to be. That does not, and I feel like people feel like, well, that makes, does not make me an imposter. If I created this whole, no, nothing around you, nothing around you just manifested. It was someone who said, "Hey, I want to do this, or, Hey, I want my life to look like this, or I want my business to look like this." and made it happen. They didn't do it alone. They usually had someone along the way to help make sure they continued, you know? Because it's one thing to start, but it's another to keep going. 

And so, giving yourself permission to have the life you want, you can do that. There's no one who says, because my parents said this is who I'm gonna be, or this person said, this is who I'm gonna be, then this is what I'm gonna have to do. I had a professor tell me I was gonna be a journalist. It wasn't me who had that dream as a kid. It was someone who said, “oh, you're gonna do news.” You're so good at it. This is what, what you're gonna do. And now in life, I'm realizing, no, I'm, I'm great at a certain thing. But that does not mean it has to be news.

And I feel like there's a lot of people out there who are feeling the feelings that they're feeling because someone told them that this is what they needed to do and this is who they need to be. And the only person who can say that is you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. And just honestly, I mean, you may, you know, you made me really good at something. And it still doesn't mean it's what you want to do. Right? Like I, we think we've, a lot of us fall into that, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you want to. You forget because you're like, “oh look, I did such a good job,” but like, you don't stop to think, “Was that satisfying to me? Was I happy doing it?” We just go along with it. You know, to what you were saying about creating your life and people feeling bad about that, I mean, I think that really is this, this weird message we've been sent, you know, really in our culture a lot. I mean, especially in the US but you know, lots of places, that, you know, that you're not necessarily supposed to enjoy your life, like, you know, or be happy. It's this weird backwards thing. Like, if you're suffering, then you're doing it right. You're working hard enough, you're, bleeding yourself dry, and that's how it should be. And it's so backwards and, when you create your own life, if you're doing it from an authentic place, if you've really done the work to figure out what matters to you, yeah. And you're doing it from that place, what could be more right than that?

If you're doing it because there's a, you a message in your head and you're trying to build some, you know, Empire because you know, you're trying to please your parents or something like that, then, yeah, that's something you wanna look at but if it's from the truth, you know who you really are, then that's, that's what we all should like really be aiming for, right? Yeah. in our professional, personal lives, all of it. 

Bre Clark: Yeah. Yeah. I tell people all the time that imposter syndrome's the opposite of self-love. It just, it just really is. And, and for one of our episodes, we had Erica Markou come on. She's a mindfulness coach here in Austin, and, uh, she just talked about how her life after covid is a lot different than her life was before.

And it's not because of the isolation and all the things, it's mostly because she had time to dive into self-love, self-compassion, really figuring out what Erica needed, what she needed, and, and what her life was going to look like if she wanted to be happy. And for her, that meant cutting some people out, you know, of her life and saying, “You know what? I have too many of y'all in this kitchen and I need you all to get out.” And so, I really commend her for that because on the other side of imposter syndrome, I mean, we talk a lot about community and how it's needed, right? But what I wanna clarify is it's community that cares about you, that cares about you being happy and cares about you being successful.

These are not just, “Hey, I found these group of people and you know, we, let's talk together.” It's do they, do they want what's best for you? Do they care about you? Are the things that they're saying, is it giving you life? Or, or do you feel depleted every time you're around them? People can give you backhanded compliments. They can pretend that they're helping you, and all the while the narcissist is causing you pain, it's, oh, they came for me for help. And for you to continue being in their lives, they have to keep you wounded. And so, that is something that I would, I would tell people to steer clear from.

You get a say in what your life looks like, which means you get a say on who is in your life. Yes, who gets to go along for a ride. And if that parent in your life is causing you pain and anguish, you love them, you care for them. But there needs to be some boundaries put in place or you're not gonna be able to, to overcome imposter syndrome because parents can grab you and, and push those buttons like no one else can. They know where they all are. You know, they created you. They know where they, they're they are and while we like to believe that all parents are loving and care about us and, and want the best for us, sometimes they want the best for them and that does not mean the best for you.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. And partners as well. 

Bre Clark: Yes. And partners as well. Partners as well. 

Jessica Hornstein: I mean, you know, partners we choose. Parents, we don't. And, you know, bosses, we sometimes have some control over and sometimes don't. But as you say, you know, the people you want around you are people who want you to be whole.

Right. And who accept you and love you and, and know you for that, for all of you, to what you said about they want you to succeed. They want you to, you know, succeed by whatever definition you have decided for yourself. Not their definition, not society's definition. You know, the people who you really want around you are the people who want you to have what is true for you, to be that fullest expression of who you are. And they will love you for that. Warts and all. And you know, we all have our stuff, and not everything, you know, doesn't mean we're, we're perfect, but we should be embraced as a whole person by the people in our inner circle. Those are the people you need in that community. 

So, what would be like, one last thought you want to leave everybody with about imposter syndrome? If they've listened to this and they think, “oh yeah, that does like me, dang.” You know, what, would you say to them to, to give them hope and move forward in their lives?

Bre Clark: Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot about community, and we talked a lot about, you know, identifying what's going on and all of that and writing down lists and all the things, but really doing that work, doing that work to figure out what, whatever it is you need. I mean, I could list out suggestions all day, but therapy might work for me, but it might not work for you. You know, medication might work for me, it might not work for you, you know, having a big group of people around me might help me, but that might not work for you. You really need to do the work and investigate, you know. Valerie Young's book is a good place to start. Lisa Orbe's book is a good place to start. There's a whole bunch of courses out there on, on Instagram but really just trying to find, find out what's gonna help you do this. And just because you don't figure it out right away does not mean that there isn't something out there for you, just means you haven't found, found that yet. For me, the biggest thing that has helped is me expressing my creativity in any way that I can. You know, it made me mean painting a wall for that day. I have painted my whole house in an anxious frenzy.

Jessica Hornstein: Very constructive use of your anxiety. 

Bre Clark: Yes. We, we've built a, a camper trailer, you know, that's pictures of, that is on Facebook and Instagram, you know. That's where I go when I'm not in health is usually building something and my husband's like, “oh my gosh, here we go.” 

Jessica Hornstein: Here we go. Yeah. 

Bre Clark: But finding just what works for you to help you get to that other side of things. Something healthy, please, something healthy that helps you get to that other side. And if you don't know where to start, some of those books that I talked about, I'll make sure I send those links to Jessica. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you. 

Bre Clark: So she has those but then also it could be something as simple as changing your language. Just changing your language.On the show, we named it The Real Deal because we wanted people to know that they are. No matter where you are today, you are the real authentic version of you. Even though you don't feel like it. You, within you right now are all the ingredients that you need to be authentic and that is okay.

Like who you are today. It is. It's great. It's the real deal, and I love it. You know, I don't have to know you, I don't have to know your history and your story but you are, and just saying that to yourself. Just saying I’m the real deal can make all the difference. And I tell myself that all the time. I don't just say to my guests. It's not just a gimmick. It's not just something we came up with, you know? It's, it's honestly something that has helped, it's helped me. And to, to claim that, you know? Especially if you don't feel that way to say it will change things. It's not being fake, you know, to say that about yourself because I guarantee you, there are people in your life who do believe that and they're right. There's people who can see through anything that you throw at them and, and they love you.

Jessica Hornstein: That's perfect. Yeah. And I think, I think acknowledging all of the feelings Yeah. That you're having, you know? Yes. and from that place that, that's where that acceptance comes that you're talking about. Yeah. You know, you don't have to be perfect. Yeah. You know, and you don't, you don't have to have, you know, hit certain marks or anything to be the real deal as you're saying, and be, a beautiful version of who you are. So, I love that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, Bre, I really have loved this conversation. Thank you so much for being here. And tell us what you are up to now. I know you just started season two, right, of The Real Deal? So, tell us. We 

Bre Clark: Season two. Oh my gosh. This season, oh my gosh, it's felt so much harder than the first season. The first season it was just like a cakewalk almost and then the second season it was like, oh my gosh. But it's out. We are kind of coming up on the middle of the season, and this season we kind of expanded that conversation. 

We are still kind of talking about imposter syndrome, but we wanted to address some of those other things, because imposter syndrome is usually accompanied by something else—usually it's depression or anxiety. That's what we're seeing is, you know, that, that people either were depressed or anxious and it fostered imposter syndrome or it was the other way around but they usually show up together and so, we're talking about some of those things and just diving deeper into people's stories and trying to give them a little bit more resources, by hearing that these other people went to therapy, hearing that these other people were on medication, hearing that these other people found a holistic way to deal with how they were dealing, and, uh, just, you know, hearing other people say, “yeah, me too.” So, we've been talking to a lot of those people from a lot of different backgrounds. 

We just released some merchandise with The Real Deal plastered all over it. So if you wanna, you know, proclaim at the gym that you're the real deal, we have it, we, it's mostly geared toward women. My team were like, “Hey, you don't have anything for the guys.” And I'm like, “okay, well, we'll try and change that.” So, we'll have some more things coming out for the, for the gentleman out there. And then, uh, we really wanna take the show on the road at some point and just do the research, more research out there and, you know, just great to have, you know, a neurologist or someone to hook someone up. And look at what part of their brain lights up when you tell 'em “You're great. I think you're awesome. Oh, you're so smart. You're so qualified.” And see what happens with someone who's suffering from imposter syndrome. What it looks like when you say that to them because I do believe that there's more research that needs to be done.

So, that's where we are, and we're just kind of seeing how things are going. I am pregnant, so a lot of baby magic is gonna be happening. 

Jessica Hornstein: Congratulations!

Bre Clark: Over the next few months. so yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, you'll see a lot of belly bump pictures and, my cute little one already and, our dog and, and all the things, so, yep. Yep.  

Jessica Hornstein: And soon baby pictures. Never get tired of that. Well, and thank you for being such a, a model for owning the feeling of imposter syndrome. Because just how, how you're speaking about your experience and just even with, you know, doing season two and woo, it was, it was harder than season one. I like, I think the more we all can be honest about those things, it will really, it'll really shift how we all interact and feel about ourselves and others. 

Bre Clark: Oh, thank you so much, Jessica. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah, thank you. Okay, well we're all the real deal. We're all the real deal. Everybody have a great, great day. Bye.

Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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