The Transformational Power of Affirmation and Altruism with Dr. Harvey Hornstein

• What do you think—are humans inherently aggressive or inherently altruistic? 
• Think about how to facilitate cooperative teams and communities which make all members feel heard and valued.  
• What can we do to activate a capacity for altruism and course-correct humanity? 
• Discover one simple question that can instantly build connection and shift power dynamics. 
• Understand how leaders significantly undermine their goals and their organization's goals by mistreating or neglecting others. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein, now retired, was a practicing psychotherapist, and a professor in the Department of Social and Organizational Psychology at Columbia University for over 30 years, during which time he also served as the Director of the Division of Psychology and Education. He also has consulted with executives at major companies all over the world to create healthier and more effective workplaces in industries such as technology, banking, insurance, entertainment, air travel, and more.

He is the author of 9 books including Cruelty and Kindness, Brutal Bosses and Their Prey, and The Haves and The Have Nots.

He also happens to be my dad!

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Website: https://www.jessicahornstein.com

*Music by Sam Murphy*
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Transcript

Jessica Hornstein: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes, feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually, there is something fundamentally right. So, join me and together, we can all feel a little less crazy.

Jessica Hornstein: Hi everybody. We are here today with a special guest and we are going to dig into the topic of validation and invalidation in the workplace and our choices to be altruistic or not. So, I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Harvey Hornstein now retired. He was a practicing psychotherapist and a professor in the Department of Social and Organizational Psychology at Columbia University for over 30 years, during which time he also served as the director of the Division of Psychology and Education.

He also has consulted with executives and teams at major companies all over the world to create healthier and more effective workplaces in industries such as technology, banking, insurance, entertainment, air travel, and more. He is the author of nine books, including Cruelty and Kindness, Brutal Bosses and Their Prey, and The Haves and The Have Nots.

He also happens to be my dad. So welcome, Dad. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Thank you. Thank you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Really happy you're here and excited to talk to you cuz you also always have interesting things to say and are very knowledgeable, having spent a lifetime studying all these topics. So, I wanted to start, I'm curious on your opinion about something, because your first book, Cruelty and Kindness was written in 1976, right? And it looked at whether people were inherently aggressive or altruistic. Right. And in a very prescient way, I think, you said that “the final verdict in this dispute will have profound social and political consequences.” And this really seems to be the question of our times right now. we're, we're sort of teetering, I think, on this edge of which way humanity will go.

And, um, while I remain hopeful, I can't say I'm entirely confident that it's, uh, it's going to save itself with altruism. Mm-hmm. So, in 1976, your answer was that no, people are not inherently aggressive by nature, and that no altruistic behavior does not go against the grain of, our natural instincts.

And I'm really curious, I'm wondering, is that still your answer? 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yes, it, it, it actually is still my answer. if I understood what you were talking about, I, I have the same anxieties. I mean, I, I wonder which way we're going to go as a nation and as a world, it's, it's not entirely clear to me. I don't think that people are inherently aggressive.

I don't think they're inherently altruistic either. I think that the direction in which they go when they have a choice between aggression or altruism, or selfishness or altruism depends very much on how they feel about themselves and how they feel about others. And that conclusion about how they feel about themselves and others is often manipulated by the information that they have about others and, uh, what their view of themselves is.

And that's what we learned through, um, through the research that I was doing prior to 1976 and really almost up until the time I retired. I can talk about that very briefly if you'd like. It will give you a, I think, a clear understanding at least of why that's my conclusion about people.

Jessica Hornstein: Sure, I'd love to hear that. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Well, imagine that you are walking along a street and there on the ground in front of you is an envelope lying open and protruding from the envelope is a wallet, and the wallet is, is wrapped in a letter. And the letter tells you letter says, here are the views of the loser. Here are the attitudes. The views. 

Jessica Hornstein: Of the person who lost the wallet. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: No, the person who was returning the wallet to the loser. 

Jessica Hornstein: Okay. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Okay, so someone else found the wallet and now they were returning it to the loser and they were returning it in an envelope. And it happens that the envelope also contains questionnaire, which they've completed, which shows their attitudes, their views, their positions on a range of issues.

This happened to thousands of people all around New York City, primarily New York City. 

Jessica Hornstein: In your research? 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: My research. Mm-hmm. And this research was done over different experiments, over three decades, and we were looking at different issues, but that's the fundamental sort of experience that the finder has.

So, from the, the material on this sheet of paper, you learn, oh my goodness, the loser of this material is just like me, or you learn that the loser is opposite me, or the material contains information that's totally irrelevant to the loser. Neutral. And there's the wallet that was going to be returned by this unfortunate person who lost the material again, and the wallet contains valuables.

It's a very ordinary wallet. Looks very real. It is very real. The credit cards and other stuff. But there are valuables which you can choose to take, or you can forward the wallet just as the loser was intending to do the destination. And what happens? Well, make a long story short. What happens if you discover that the loser was like you—the return rates are in the 80% and above. If you learn that the loser is very much unlike you, opposite you, the return rates drop to about 20%. So, what does this mean? Well, it means that people aren't naturally altruistic and they're not naturally selfish and aggressive, but they're very much affected by what they learn about another.

Hmm. And if the other is like them, they go to complete the interrupted act the other, they act on the loser’s behalf. And if they learn, the other is not like them, they don't do that hardly at all. So, it's not one way or the other. But that's the major conclusion, that we're not wholly altruistic. Well, most of us are not, but we're not wholly selfish either. We can act on the goals of another.

And you and everyone who's watching this has probably had that experience where you act on the, on the goals of another. What do you do for loved ones? What do you do for your children? You often act on their behalf, even if you don't wholly endorse the goals that they're trying to complete, you may help them get, reach that goal nonetheless.

Jessica Hornstein: Hmm. But there needs to be some kind of association for you. Yeah. Which in some ways is that not. Still sort of egoistic in a way. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: The sense that you're helping someone, you care about someone, you Right. Someone who's like you. Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. I, yeah, but it's not selfish. Hmm. The outcomes go to the other. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right, right, right. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: That's what we discovered, and that's what I started to employ as an idea during my consulting and other activities. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. I guess then, the question is how to create environments where people feel invested in others in, in those ways. Right? 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Not just not invested, but they feel like 

Jessica Hornstein: connected. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: They're connected to the others. I feel as something that makes me and you a team, makes me and you similar, there's overlap there. There's something binding, there's a cohesion. That's when people start acting on others' behalf. And I admit in the absence of that kind of tie, people can be, appear to be very, very selfish. Mm-hmm. And they will not act on the others' behalf. I'll tell you another one that we did. 

More than a century ago, there was a woman, a Russian woman who was living and going to school in Germany. And she discovered that if you were working on a series of problems and you left some incomplete, you tended to remember the incomplete ones more than the completed ones. Okay. Keep that in mind.

So, I did research where you were watching someone who held views and values different from yours or that person held views and values similar to yours, and they worked on a series of tasks and they left some incomplete. You were just watching them, you weren't doing the tasks, you were watching them do it.

And what happened? When we asked the watchers to recall, which task did they recall, they recalled the incompleted ones when the other was like them. Mm. If the other wasn't like them, it didn't matter was completed or not. They recalled very few, if any, of them. Really. Any of em? Yes. 

Jessica Hornstein: They really didn't have any interest.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: What do I care about? Right, right. But when they left tasks incompleted and the other was like them, they remember the incompleted ones just as if they were doing it themselves. It was if they were in the other person's shoes doing the work, and the incompleted ones were remembered. How about that? 

Jessica Hornstein: Interesting. Yeah.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: There's no benefit to remembering them. There's nothing to be gained. they're not, they're not gonna even connect with one another. They're never gonna meet. But you remember that's still right when, when the other is like you.

That research was very important. We did that with hundreds of people. It showed the same thing over and over again. There are times there are ties between you and a stranger, and that stranger's outcome that stranger's welfare is, is like, is comes like your own. You act on their behalf.

People have the capacity. Question is do they have the link? Mm-hmm. Right. Right. And that's why you and I are probably worried about what might happen here in the United States or the world these days. Those ties are not as apparently solid as they were a decade ago, or two or three decades ago. They seem to have withered a bit. Well, they do to me anyway.

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Well, I would agree with that for sure. Yeah, maybe that's a good starting place You know, whether it's in a company or, an organization or a society, right—when that doesn't happen, you know, when it is breaking down. When it is falling apart or maybe those ties were never originally built in the first place, so where do you think that comes from? Like, let's start with the problem. When it doesn't happen, when we don't see people creating those links, what do you think is contributing to that at its heart? I mean, there's obviously many, many reasons, but– 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Sure. Well, in organizations, I think it, it often doesn't happen because bosses are either inattentive to, to the issues or even worse. Very often they think that, um, being a boss means that you should direct and control others. You should specify exactly how they should behave. And when they fail to do that, you come down on them, you punish them, you find ways of making their life a little miserable, that way they'll get in line.

Um, I talked to a boss one time and, uh, this person said to me, “I, I, I keep them on their toes and I keep them on their toes by making them know they won't have their job tomorrow if they don't do just what they're supposed to be doing.” Well, I don't know how to break it to you, but that boss's subordinate is probably like you and me and anyone else who's listening I mean, when someone treats you like that, if you're being very honest, what do you do? You often wait for your first opportunity to give it to them, get them and if you don't get them, you at least stall and you do things that benefit you and if it costs the organization a little bit. Well, too bad. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. You don't care as much. Yeah. You don't care. You don't, the loyalty isn't there. Yeah. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. And it's very much like the people who were remembering the incompleted task. You don't feel the sense of us, or you do feel the sense of us. When bosses treat people that way the, the bonds of us are not grown. They're diminished. And when the bonds of us are diminished, subordinates don't work to complete. They don't share the boss's goal. 

Jessica Hornstein: Do you think that bosses, people in control in those positions of leadership, I mean, do you think that that need to control, do you think that comes from, some, some misguided belief that that's really how things will get done? Yes. Do you think it comes from some power-hungry place because people who rise to those levels are, you know, inherently ambitious? I mean, I think we see these huge, these huge divisions now between our leaders, whether it's in politics or in, in big companies. between them and, you know, the rest of us, in society or in the, in the company. The people who are, who are not at that level. There's a selfish quality to it, about, you know. How this is going, can serve them, that this is all there to serve them and everyone is there to serve them. I, you know, I don't wanna write everybody off of that way, but, but it can seem like that sometimes. So, I'm wondering what else, what you think contributes to it, I'm sure there is more to it. What else is there to it? 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I, I don't know of any, any investigations that I could tell you about that would identify whether this is widespread because people are that way or widespread because people think they should be that way. but my, my own reading from my work in organizations and from the research I've done is, is that, that people often assume they need to be this way to get folks to do the work that needs to get done. But it's not a natural inclination. It is not inbred. Um, it is not the way they have to be. It is the way they are, but it's not the way they have to be. If a few people are this way to begin with, they rise to the top of organizations, what's gonna happen?

Well, the people beneath them will become like they are. And what will happen then? Well, the people beneath these people become, will become that way. And soon you have an organization full of bosses who are very willing to use punishment and mistreatment as an inducement to have their subordinates behave the way they're supposed to behave. And when they don't behave that way, it becomes proof that I need to even crack down even more. 

Well, in my work in organizations, the opposite often occurred. When we were able to talk with subordinates and bring out issues, people often felt affirmed. They were, they bound together. Um, they formed cooperative relationships, and they worked on behalf of the goals that need to be completed. It was like the people in that research that I was telling you about, they not only remembered what was not completed, they— 

Jessica Hornstein: They did it.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Uncompleted goals needed to be completed for them to feel good and they worked together to do it. They start cooperating. So, the capacity is there. The issue is what releases that capacity. How do you start to form relationships where that becomes a culture within which that becomes what's pursued rather than the more competitive, ruthless, undermining that we all see, that we can all talk about an organization?

There are data which show that the large percentage, 80%, I don't know the exact numbers at this point, but a large percentage of people quit their jobs or misbehave in their jobs, because their bosses mistreat them. They punish them, they punish them rather than support them. When work falls short, they punish them rather than support them by providing the training that needs to be done. They punish them rather than support them through affirmative statements. Let me, let me say something to you. Will initially seem very simple, but it is terribly profound. I read about a boss the other day. He said if things are going wrong, the first thing he does is he goes to the people who are involved and he says, “what should we be doing differently?” Hmm. Now that's a very simple question, isn't it? No, it's not. It's a very profound question. If I say to you, “what should we be doing differently?” What does it say about my regard for you? What does it say about the ties that are gonna be built with you? Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right? It's inclusive and respectful.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Inclusive. It's an affirmation. And once there's an affirmation, there's a bonding. And once there's a bonding, if the problem can be undone, if the goals can be shared, that's what's gonna be more likely to happen.

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Well, and, what I think I hear you saying is that it doesn't even have to be as extreme, as punishing as a, you know, boss being like really directly acutely punishing of subordinates. It's, it's that a culture where people don't feel heard is bad enough, like even that undermines their sense of connection to their superiors or their organization or their work and all of that. So, it's, it's not even like, it doesn't have to be even abuse, it can just kind of be neglect. Right? Like same thing like with parents, right? Like you can really hurt a child, not by directly abusing them, but just by not hearing them and it's kind of neglecting them, right? Like not valuing who they are. It's the same. Yeah. Same kind of thing, right? Where everybody just wants to be heard and seen and valued.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: You got it. absolutely. And bosses are in a unique position to provide that kind of affirmation. You don't have to say, “Hey, you're the dumbest person I ever met.” Just, just the neglect, just the abuse which, which occurs subtly and indirectly because you, you go around the person, um, you don't attend to them, you don't, you don't do what this boss I told you about does, which says, “tell me what you think we should be doing.”

Right. And if you don't agree with the substance of the person's response, just asking that question of the person is an affirmation. “I think you may have an answer. I think you're that good. Oh, that answer? No, we can't do that because this and this, but thank you for giving me the answer.”

What a difference. Yeah, what a difference. Yeah. When I worked an organization, all I did was sort of find different ways of sponsoring this kind of conversation. The conversation which built ties of us. In the end, that they could see that others had valuable inputs to make.

And you know what? People were very happy and I was lucky to get into it. I, I enjoyed it thoroughly. I mean, I loved the research I did out of Columbia, but I loved this other stuff. you could see people bonding and it was such a, a relief and it was such a much better world for them.

And bosses have endless opportunity all day long to do this kind of thing. Bosses are in a unique position to do this. They're leaders, they're decision-makers, they’re job designers, they're motivators. And in those capacities, they have all these opportunities to do this kind of, to create this kind of bond which will facilitate the currency of this kind of response from their subordinates. Right. As opposed to a response which is negative and undermines the organization. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right, right. Well, and yeah, and as you said, I mean, it doesn't take much like that that person you were giving the example of who just was asking like, “what do you think?” You know, it really doesn't take much at all in my experience either to just feel valued. but it doesn't happen so much of the time. So, what, what were some things, so when you would go in and, and work with these groups, what were some of the things that you, the tools you gave them or the approaches you, helped them implement you know, to shift the culture?

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: What we would do is really gather them together, and in one fashion or another, one way or another, have, have the group examine inputs from people at all levels of the group inputs, which, almost always more than 90% of the time, prove to be valuable and have them work together to discuss the, um, benefits and liabilities of working on these inputs and installing corrections, remedies to the problems that they were facing. We’d bring the groups together. When I say groups‑means people from all the levels involved, the bosses and the subordinates. Bring them together to have the discussion, to have discussions around these issues. We were able to show through that subtly without saying so, everyone here in this room has something valuable to add, Understanding of the issues that is a valuable contribution and worth discussing. Not to say that everything that everyone offered is actionable. It's not, not everything will work. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right, of course. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: The more subtle consequence of doing that kind of, uh, creating that kind of intervention is that you're saying between the lines, there's affirmation here. No matter what the level people have valuable contributions, valuable perspectives and contributions, and this is a good way to problem solve. Should not be reserved for the bosses. It should be something that we all work on. that's what we did. And that's pretty much how it, how it would begin a process, which ultimately changed the culture of problem-solving in the organization. And when that was able to be sustained, my experience, it was not only a better place to work, the place worked better. The outcomes were better. And the organizations I worked with in the, in the end were generally very successful. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, everyone benefits. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Absolutely. You know, and the evidence is in, I mean, they, from research shows that once bosses can do this sort of thing, turn over declines, productivity goes up. The evidence is in, but it's not always convincing. And something you said before is certainly true. Um, that for some people, being a boss means I can control you and I can punish you when you don't do exactly what I say. Now, that for some people is a very elevating experience to go back to issues you raised earlier. Some people enjoy that kind of control and capacity to punish, but I, in my experience, don't find that would be a very widespread occurrence. Mm-hmm. I think there are people who are like that, I think there are all organizations that breed people who become that way, but generally speaking, I think people are ready to flee that. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, it may be just that they really stand out, those people, whether it's in politics or you know, leaders of, giant companies, they're, they're notable because they're, they're prominent, they're loud, they're dangerous, you know? Yeah. They, they, they feel, so it may, you know, it may, it maybe it stands out more, even though it's not the majority, of people. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. I, I, my experience the majority are willing to make the shift 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. That's good to hear. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I’m willing to admit there's a, there's a minority that kinda like that role. They like being in control that way. And in some ways they're probably a bit sadistic. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, narcissistic too, you know, like maybe want people, you know, want the sycophants and, all the people following them. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jessica Hornstein: Which, which requires you to, to turn some people against other people, to foster that kind of orientation towards yourself, right. You, you need to say, oh, you're with me, and they're not. It's like a divisive, inherently divisive kind of posture. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: You, you're with me. They're not. Let's get them like, yeah. Right, right. Some people enjoy that conflict. They enjoy the power it gives them. In my experience at least, it is not a natural human instinct.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's good news. I really hope you're right about that. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I do too. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. So, it's interesting because it's like almost like what you were saying before, going back to the work you did with, with these groups, is that it worked on kind of two tracks. Like the one track was, was by including everybody's opinion, and people hearing valuable contributions from other people. Right. That were maybe practical and actionable but also that on another level, just the act of bringing people together. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Absolutely. Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: Just everybody at the table in the room. Being part of the conversation has its own power. Absolutely. And its own, like, its own transformational power in and of itself, regardless of the content even. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: The getting together, working had benefits for that group in the organization that carried forward. Right. They hadn't come up with something that could be introduced and would remedy some of the problem. Not all problems are easily solvable. But the benefits of getting together, the benefits of the discussion, the way that transformed the culture of the organization could carry forward. And, and it did. 

Jessica Hornstein: That's so key, right? To acknowledge that and because of the applications of that for how we do. Everything, you know, in, in any relationship, in anything, right. That transforms things just by “let's have the conversation.”

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Absolutely. And say, “I, I didn't know we could be this way. I didn't know we could work this way.” I mean, there were all these statements of surprise about how competent we were, how able we were, how willing, how committed people were, how that had benefits beyond the solution. 

Jessica Hornstein: That's a key takeaway away, I think, the power of that from the, the macro, down to the micro levels of, of life and the world. 

So in the end, you are using the word affirming, but, you know, I talk about things in terms of validation and invalidation, which is, it's really, the same idea is that people want to feel validated, right? I think we often don't realize how much other people need it, you know? Absolutely. Like, I don't think we're, trained or, you know, raised to, to appreciate the value of validating somebody, just in little, tiny ways even. Right. “Thank, thank you. That was really helpful.” You know, anything. Right. Even little things, how much people need to hear that and need to feel seen, acknowledged, and seen.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I, I think that's exactly right. I told you before about the, the various surveys that were done with subordinates and organizations where they talk about where they confess that, they have left jobs, they didn't do the work that was required. because they felt mistreated. They felt that their bosses were not providing them with the validation that, that they deserve.

Um, bosses often unfortunately, treat subordinates as if they're robots. Mm-hmm. “Do what I prescribe and everything will be fine for you. Vary from that and you'll suffer.” Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, well, it's not, it's not only the suffering that may be introduced by the boss that causes trouble. It's the threat because it's what the threat says about you. If I can threaten you that way. I'm not affirming you. I am disaffirming you. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, it's dehumanizing, like you said. It's treating them like a robot. It's dehumanizing. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Like a robot. I'm treating you like a robot. Yeah. Right. Do what you're supposed to. Everything's cool. Don't do what you're supposed to and you'll pay a price. Once I say that to you, how different is that from what I said that boss did that was so powerful? “Tell me what you think should be happening.”

Jessica Hornstein: The difference between, there's, there's a, we, this is about us, this is, you know, we are in this and, no, it's me and I'm separate from all the rest of you. Or we're all separate from each other. Yeah. We see that playing out in so many ways right now in the world. Exactly. Exactly. I'm wondering even, I mean, in, in sort of listening to us talk and we all know language has so much power and influences our perceptions and all of that. I think maybe “subordinate” is a word that should be tossed, you know? Obviously, there are hierarchies in organizations, but, there are probably much better ways to speak about people at different levels. Cause that's inherently like you're lower. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I was gonna say that one of the things I observed informally, is that in places where I consulted, where I felt it was successful, I noticed the bosses and subordinates would often talk about one another in terms of people I work with or, so and so part of my group, they would say, start saying things like that rather than subordinate. 

Jessica Hornstein: Exactly. Yeah. Speaks exa That's, yeah, that's speaks exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. The ties that bind became more observable. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah. So, I'm wondering what brought you to this work? Like what made this your life's work? 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Um, first I became interested in, altruism as, uh, an issue to study rather than to work with as a consultant or therapist because of, uh, an event. You, I don't know if you remember it, you may have heard about it, you may be too young to remember it, but there was a woman named Kitty Genovese who was murdered. 

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm, right. And people saw like through the windows, right?

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. They, they, she was killed in, I think it was the courtyard of her home, of a building where she lived. People heard her screams. No one called the police. And I said, why? Why would that be? Why? On some occasions, some people act altruistically weren't perfectly safe to do so, and on others they don't. That's how I started those investigations. 

Jessica Hornstein: I had a hypothesis that, your, uh, childhood and what you grew up in and that sort of rough street life culture, I don't know what you'd call it, but you know, all those great stories you have, but that are also, kind of harsh, kind of brutal, and certainly there was hierarchies and social dynamics and bullies and this and that. I mean, it was, it was pretty rough. I, you know, wonder if that somehow initially, sparked or, planted that seed. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: I've never actually made that connection. But, where I grew up, people were very cohesive and if you mistreated someone in your group, that was okay. If someone else did it, that was not okay. If someone was outside your group, that was not okay. You didn't, you didn't mistreat people in my group and there, there were profound consequences for doing so, if you stepped over that boundary. Cohesion was very important. Altruism was very important. You really stepped up to benefit others, even at a cost to yourself. Um, so all that was very important. 

Jessica Hornstein: But your group, wasn't necessarily just your family. I mean, it was like these little gangs. So who you were with and who you were against, right, were formed in interesting ways.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: There was my group, there was another group and the lesser people in my group were very badly treated by people in the group, but that privilege of mistreating them was not extended to people outside the group.

You didn't do it. Um, and if you did, um, you were in trouble. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, so you, I mean, you don't, don't you see any parallels between that and the hierarchy, you know, organizational hierarchies and bosses feeling like they can treat their employees badly, but, but they're gonna compete against the other organization.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely. Enemies on the outside increase the ties on the inside. My mentor for my PhD, Mort Deutsch, was very much concerned with cooperation and competition what created those ties, what undid those ties, so there were a whole series of experiences that I had that produced the foundation. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. No, of course. Professionally, there were all sorts of things. I always sort of thought, you know, not to, not to psychoanalyze you dad, but 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah, no, no, it was true. 

Jessica Hornstein: But you know, I just always thought that's really interesting. Like I, that I wonder how much that those early experiences planted that seed to make this an interesting topic for you later on. Because it was such a salient part of, of your formative years, right, that culture?

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It was very central. 

Jessica Hornstein: Well, it's been so much fun talking to you. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Terrific. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you for sharing all of that. And, so what are you working on now, Dad? I know you're always, always curious and always doing something 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Well, I, I just finished writing a book focused on, um, bosses and their treatment of subordinates. You know, at this point, this could be very well be my last professional effort. Um, but we'll see. And it is about the ways in which bosses can, facilitate or hinder goal sharing.

When, when do subordinates endorse the goals that a boss may have? What, what someone, uh, who I talk about in the book called the in-between stuff. Meaning, those goals that are, not theirs, but they're goals that have to be completed by the group. When do I care about my boss's goals? Even if they're not mine? When do I care about your goals as a coworker, even if they're not mine? And I help you or my boss get to those goals. Even though I don't gain anything from helping you get there, except the satisfaction of knowing that you achieved something.

Jessica Hornstein: Interesting. Well, again, I hear like so many applications to wider society, if, you know, if we could do that with our communities and you know, everything else, right? It would Absolutely, yeah. Everything would change. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I can live an entirely selfish life just attending to those things that make me more comfortable and not care very much at all about those things that need to exist for other people. Or , I can facilitate the establishment of those goals and outcomes for others. What makes me care enough to do that and what makes me sort of say, “Hey, the hell with you, I'm done. Go take a nap now.” 

And both are possible. I mean, people are very, some people are very ready to say, oh, people don't care. They're not gonna facilitate others' achievement of goals, which have no benefit for them, but they do and they will. And going back to the beginning of our conversation, we're all, well, great, many of us are a little uneasy these days because of what seems to be developing. We don't care about whether others are feeling safe, whether conditions are promising for them. we only care about whether we're feeling safe if, if things go too heavily in that direction, it could be dangerous for us all.

Jessica Hornstein: Well, that's right. I, that's what I was gonna say is nobody feels safe at all. No. You know, so all everybody's trying to make themselves feel safe. All that's happening is that nobody feels safe ever.

So maybe, if we can't convince people or somehow, you know, activate everybody's, uh, capacity for. For altruism, just for its own sake. Because it's the right thing to, it's the best part of humanity. maybe we can, there's, we can get some people to sort of have a concept of, um, selfish altruism, you know, where it's like, it's, it's good for you to be altruistic.

So, if you're not gonna do it, just cuz it's good for somebody else, do it because it's good for you too. Like a, it is a steppingstone towards full altruism, I wonder. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: If I can care about others and facilitate their goal achievement, it is beneficial for me. The benefits may be very remote. It's not that I get to eat the sweet candy every day. The benefits may not be that concrete and immediate. But we do all benefit. I wouldn't label that selfish. if you are benefiting and your life is a little better and you are doing what you need to do, sure, I'm better off. What's wrong with that? It's not selfish. 

Jessica Hornstein: True. Well, yeah. Maybe, yeah. Self-benefiting or something is a better way to say it. Yeah. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: We all benefit when we all benefit. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you for joining and, yeah, thanks. 

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Okay, sweetie . 

Jessica Hornstein: Thanks for being here.

Dr. Harvey Hornstein: Yeah, a pleasure, a pleasure. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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